Chat Archive: 9/28/2004

This chat was run on September 28, 2004 from 9 PM EST to 11 PM EST. The topic was: Jewcy Jews: Is it good for Judaism?

Session Ident: #usychat
    <Shoshi>    what is the topic again?
    <Gabe_C>    Look up
    <Shoshi>    (i'm not so sure i know what that means...)
    <Gabe_C>    Basically, pop-culture Jews
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    flogging molly puts on a good show
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    /ping
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    <Seaboard_Tikshoret_Zach_Greenb>    there's nothing wrong with pop culture jews
    <Seaboard_Tikshoret_Zach_Greenb>    guster...
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    <Shoshi>    could someone define pop culture jews?
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    <Gabe_C>    I wrote an article about Guster for the Seaboarder, remember?
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    ya, but for those of us who aren't in seaboard...
    <Gabe_C>    Right
    <USYNerd>    yeah
    <USYNerd>    i mean come on gabe!
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    I think Jewcy Jews transcends more than just the pop culture aspect of it though
    <USYNerd>    anyway
    <Shari>    hi
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    I mean, I think it's an attitude
    <USYNerd>    so who knows something about "Jewcy Jews" and wants to kind of lead the chat?
    <Shari>    yay it worked
    <Seaboard_Tikshoret_Zach_Greenb>    what kind of attitude?
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    <Gabe_C>    Basically, I ranted for a good half page about whether Guster should be held to the same standards as other Jews if they weren't actually a Jewish band and were, instead, a band of Jews
    <USYNerd>    since i know next to nothing about it
    <Shari>    what is the definition of "jewcy jews"
    <USYNerd>    btw, tell all of your friends in USY to come join us
    <USYNerd>    the more people the better
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    who made this topic?
    <Shoshi>    so what kind of attitude does a jewcy jew have?
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    <Shoshi>    anyone?
    <Shari>    we're all so confused!
    <Shoshi>    good call, me too, but someone has said that a jewcy jew has to do with being a pop culture jew
    <Shoshi>    and then someone said that it has to do with the attitude
    <Shoshi>    so i'm wondering what exactly that attitude is
    <Gabe_C>    Some (for the purposes of this discussion, I'll be that "some") find the idea offensive because it's taking Judaism and using it for different means
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    <Shoshi>    well judaism is clearly a cultural thing
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    <USYNerd>    *TIMEOUT CALLED BY STEVEN NOVICK*
    <Shoshi>    so jewish pop culture seems pretty natural to me
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    <Gabe_C>    Ok, so why should it be extended to other cultures?
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    i think Jewcy Jews could easily be defined at www.jewcy.com
    <USYNerd>    For those of us here who don't know anything about Jewcy Jews, can someone (I guess gabe) explain what it is
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    <USYNerd>    and why it might be controversial
    <Gabe_C>    I'd rather let somebody else explain, I'll try to find a reson for it to be controversial
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    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    hey all
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    check it out
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    :
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    Jewcy Jew-cy
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    1. Having much kosher-style fabulosity; succulent <- as in pickled herring, or Babs in Funny Girl
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    hey
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    antonym: goyish
    <Shoshi>    did jews invent this?
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    i assume
    <Gabe_C>    If you consider Judaism something sacred, you don't exactly want to see the word "Jewcy" stretched across a girl's chest
    <Shoshi>    but judaism is more than just something that is sacred
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    man
    <noga_tzafon>    but it is putting a more positive outreach then "15 palestinians killed in gaza this week"
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    i can see we're gonna be stretching it to make a discussion out of this...
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    can someone fill me in to what we are talkin about
    <Shoshi>    are non-jews wearing these clothes?
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    <MikeLandes>    HA ok noga, I'm here
    <Gabe_C>    I'm pretty sure non-Jews listen to the music
    <USYNerd>    ok
    <Gabe_C>    If they didn't, that would be a bad way to make money
    <USYNerd>    so after a quick read of their website
    <USYNerd>    here's teh controversy\
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    <USYNerd>    if you look at some of the clothing their selling, some of the things i see could be consdered offenseive such as
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    Shalom Motherf**ker
    <USYNerd>    1) T-shirt that says "Shalom MotherF**er"
    <USYNerd>    thank you nathan
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    beat you to it!
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    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    ha
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    <Shoshi>    that definitely does not put a good label on judaism
    <noga_tzafon>    if they're profane....than yeah, but a plain "yo semite" shirt...whats the problem?
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    ok but wait
    <MamboZ416>    hey akk
    <MamboZ416>    all*
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    before Jewcy, this same thing still existed
    <USYNerd>    2) A thong that says "Jewcy" on it (the 'W' is a shin)
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    I mean "Go f**k Your Self" upside down in hebrew, for example
    <USYer1697>    testing
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    big deal
    <USYer1697>    jewsy=kickass
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    <USYNerd>    3) Three sexy girls with the title of "Rabbi's daughters"
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    ok, but I could ask a question about the thong... if it prevents interdating, isn't a good thing?
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    <Gabe_C>    Hey, Dean
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    <dean>    hello sketchy weapons dealer
    <MikeLandes>    why would it prevent interdating?
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    <MamboZ416>    «mor» are u mor from charlotte?
    <noga_tzafon>    woo mor!
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    <USYNerd>    it's basically i guess starting a trend that others in public will see
    <Jewcy_Jew>    hey guys
    <USYNerd>    so i guess the question is
    <Gabe_C>    I don't see how it could prevent interdating
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    <MikeLandes>    neither do i
    <USYNerd>    what does this do for the image of judaism
    <Shari>    i'm back!
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i'd consider myself a jewcy jew
    <USYNerd>    to nonjews
    <Shari>    it took me like 15 minutes to get it, but i am back
    <Gabe_C>    If you use it as a means to get closer to actually observing the mitzvot, and it's a temproary thing, then yeah, I guess it's good (some people have the same outlook on NCSY)
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    t doesnt do nething for the image of Judaism..if this is someones only way of showing pride then more power to them
    <noga_tzafon>    (guys finish your thought in 1 line...not 2, cause i forget the first half of what you said)
    <MikeLandes>    i dont see why it portrays us any worse than it does other religions though, regardless of the rules we have set in place
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    <noga_tzafon>    how would this compare to "jesus is my homeboy"?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    personally... i don't think my "jewcy judiasm" reflects poorly on judiasm at all
    <Shoshi>    don't dis ncsy
    <USYNerd>    i don't see anything on this site though that promotes religion
    <dean>    I think it's funny ass shit making fun of society
    <USYNerd>    it's promoting embracing your jewish identity
    <Gabe_C>    I'm not dissing NCSY at all
    <Gabe_C>    I love NCSY
    <USYNerd>    i guess
    <Shoshi>    i love ncsy too
    <Gabe_C>    Good
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i embrace my jewish identity, in a different way then i guess you guys do
    <dean>    I love Gabe
    <dean>    like he loves NCSY
    <Shoshi>    it is presenting judaism as a culture rather than a means by which to observe mitzvot
    <noga_tzafon>    but isn't judaism considered a culture too? not just the religion?
    <penina>    how does jewcy clothes help you embrace your jewish identity?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    modernization
    <Shoshi>    it says JEW on it, doesn't it?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    everything changes
    <Gabe_C>    Judaism shouldn't have to
    <dean>    I think it's more of some funny stuff to wear rather than creating an identity
    <Jewcy_Jew>    it's a different way of expressing it
    <noga_tzafon>    conservative judaism = embracing modern times....
    <Jewcy_Jew>    well it does
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    exactly- its moderization...its portaying something ina comical light
    <dean>    if anything it is demodernization, labeling, (think back to jude stars in WWII)
    <Jewcy_Jew>    and i'd love to see you convinve me why it matters whether i'm JEWCY or not?
    <MikeLandes>    can you hear me?
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    its no labeling!
    <noga_tzafon>    but we're not forced to wear them, like the jude stars
    <noga_tzafon>    (yeah mike, i see it)
    <dean>    then it is something funny to wear
    <Jewcy_Jew>    so because i wear a jewish star proudly i'm offending judaism?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    explain that to me please
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    <MikeLandes>    thanks....
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    well
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    Its no differnt than any of us wearng our USY shirts out and about
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    whoa
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    <Jewcy_Jew>    amen to hurricanes
    <dean>    Jewcy_jew, well this isn';t WWII anymore
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    that's a good point... I mean, the shirt I'm wearing right now says "Be all that Jew can be"
    <Jewcy_Jew>    no kidding
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    sure, why is that wrong?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    so i can wear it in pride and without fear
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    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    omg! thats great!dean
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i don't see what WWII has nething to do with this
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    it doesny
    <Shoshi>    so this might be really far fetched but you all know the first paragraph of the shma how it talks about putting all these signs of your love for G-d everywhere?  like mezuzah, totafot, etc.  so that's bascially advertising the fact that we're jewish.  and to me, it's a lot like wearing a shirt that advertises that we're jewish.  if there are bad words on it, then it's a different issue
    <Jewcy_Jew>    good then leave it out of it
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    <Gabe_C>    Because you wear a subversion of the Jewish religion, it CAN be seen ass offensive
    <Jewcy_Jew>    obviously
    <noga_tzafon>    its like any typical jew joke....we can say it and laugh, but if someone else says it, its offensive. so why can't we laugh at ourselves on a shirt, too?
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    well, I don't know how you would consider it to be a subversion?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    just because i offend your judaism, why should i limit my own?
    <Gabe_C>    Maybe subversion isn't the right word
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    i mean, there's a certain border to it, but I don't think that border is easily crossed.
    <MikeLandes>    i agree....we shouldnt subvert our values to others
    <Shari>    i remember a few years ago there was a showing in atlanta of leonard nemoy's photography, and it featured naked people wearing tefillin and such and there was a big controversy
    <Gabe_C>    You asked why it's offensive, I told you
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    That is to say, "Jewcy" shows pride
    <SWUSY_Nathan>    "Shalom Motherf**ker" probably shows something else
    <Gabe_C>    It can be seen as mocking our holy faith
    <penina>    shalom motherf**ker is just obonoxious even if it doesnt have the word shalom on it
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i don't see why?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    it's just an expression
    <Gabe_C>    Why what?
    <mor>    .... hmmmm
    <Jewcy_Jew>    how that's offensive
    <Jewcy_Jew>    it's just an attitude
    <Jewcy_Jew>    a new attitude
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    there are too many important things in this world to worry about, like real issues that can hurt us, a clothing line few even wear come on
    <noga_tzafon>    (guys'...im having a really hard time following...always restate something, so we know what you're talking about....)
    <MikeLandes>    attitude can occur without judaism being implicated, so i dont see why we should be picked on for having one
    <MikeLandes>    especially where others can also use one
    <Shoshi>    could someone discribe this attitude please?
    <MikeLandes>    "shalom, motherf***er"
    <mor>    what jewish attitude?
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    <mor>    i think every ethnicity or people have have a sort of attitude
    <mor>    it's not a bad thing
    <MikeLandes>    it provides cultural individuality
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    <MikeLandes>    (to some degree, obviously)
    <Gabe_C>    If Jews wanted to show their pride in their religion, they could just as easily wear tzitzit
    <mor>    some do
    <Gabe_C>    Good
    <MikeLandes>    true, but christians could just wear a cross rather than having shirts saying "JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR"
    <mor>    it all depends how you grew up
    <MikeLandes>    it goes both ways
    <mor>    and where... and what culture you've been around
    <MikeLandes>    we shouldnt be implicated
    <Jewcy_Jew>    so... you wearing a certain type of clothing to show your judaism respects it
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    they wear both
    <Jewcy_Jew>    while mine disgraces it?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    explain that to me
    <Jewcy_Jew>    Gabe_C
    <noga_tzafon>    but if a girl wants to show she's proud to be jewish, she's not going to go around wearing tzitzit...a "jewcy jew" shirt might sound ore appealing to her
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    <SWUSY_Nathan>    i think the shirts as compared to tzitzit are a different thing... I mean, more observant jews will easily wear tzitzit, but a proud less-observant jew surely won't
    <Gabe_C>    So you, Jewcy_Jew, don't find "Shalom, Motherf***er" the least bit offensive?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    it's an expression
    <METNY_Justin>    girls do chose to weart tzitzit in the conservative movement
    <Jewcy_Jew>    it declares my judiasm
    <MikeLandes>    of course its offensive, but not the judaism part of it
    <Jewcy_Jew>    obviously some are offended by profanity
    <noga_tzafon>    we can be proud to be as observant as we are. just cause we're proud to be jewish doesn't mean we're increasing our sense of observation (ie wearing tzitzit)
    ---    USYNerd has changed the topic to: USY CHAT: "Jewcy Jews" - Is it good for Judaism?
    <Jewcy_Jew>    however that's not the topic of this debate
    <MikeLandes>    it doesnt imply jews are obnoioius though
    <MikeLandes>    obnoXIOUS*
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i agree with mike that the judaism part is what we're debating
    <Gabe_C>    I think it can easily give people the wrong idea about Judaism, that we don't take it seriously enough to actually observe the laws and show our pride that waw
    <Jewcy_Jew>    not the profanity part
    <Gabe_C>    way
    <Gabe_C>    *way
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    <mor>    wait... what are we talking about? because i'm really confused
    <MikeLandes>    racial implications dont apply to that sort of thing....if they did, then any culture could be accused as being profane
    <noga_tzafon>    how is that not observing the laws?
    <mor>    you're talking about Jewish pride and such
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    <MikeLandes>    im not saying "shalom mother****er" is ok, but its not demeaning in any way to judaism
    <MikeLandes>    just the wearer of the shirt
    <imhere>    noga- are you there? dean
    <mor>    none jews say that phrase
    <MikeLandes>    we portray our values on us....we can be jewish AND profane
    <mor>    just so we know
    <noga_tzafon>    yes...who's dean?
    <imhere>    noga!dean
    <imhere>    noga_tzafon:
    <imhere>    i love you
    <imhere>    noga noga noga!dean
    <Gabe_C>    I'm not saying that it's not observing the laws, I'm saying that the people who show their pride in Judaism ONLY by wearing Jewcy Jew clothing are giving the wrong idea about Judaism as a whole
    <imhere>    NOGA
    <Jewcy_Jew>    how so gabe?
    <MikeLandes>    not at all....it only shows part of their nature
    <noga_tzafon>    what?! how do you have any idea that THE ONLY jewish thing they do is where the shirt??
    <imhere>    NOGA- stop talking you cherry poppin woman u dean
    <Gabe_C>    IF it's the only thing, then it's bad
    <noga_tzafon>    ari..?
    <MikeLandes>    not at all
    <noga_tzafon>    you cherry popper...
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    loli doubt too many not educated people are like " oh so thats what those jews do, they wear shirts that say shalom mutherf**ker! I get it now"dean
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    <penina>    nobody on the outside knows if its the only thing
    <imhere>    HAHAHA get out of this loser- i need to talk to u!dean
    <imhere>    and why does it keep saying dean? dean
    <imhere>    see..dean
    <MikeLandes>    its all part of your self-portrayal, and i dont think that cursing with jewish content on the same shirt means jews are portrayed as profane
    <imhere>    it always says dean- noga talk to me> dean
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    <MikeLandes>    you still following, GabE_C?
    <CHUSYcomm04>    Hey all! This is Jillian from CHUSY!
    <Gabe_C>    Yes
    <Gabe_C>    I'm trying to think of a way to articulate this so you can understand
    <Shari>    hi jillian!
    <CHUSYcomm04>    SHARI!
    <MikeLandes>    and im trying to explain to you that values of a PERSON, not a RELIGION, are portrayed on a shirt!
    <Shari>    hi!
    <MamboZ416>    shari who now!
    <Shari>    hey avi!
    <MamboZ416>    woho its shari!
    <Shari>    it is
    <Shari>    party at the usy chat
    <mor>    i'm mor
    <mor>    nice to meet you all
    <mor>    haha
    <Shari>    that was fun..
    <mor>    Hey it Avi! and Shari! and you guys are gonna be in charlotte in like 3 weeks!
    <Shari>    ok so jewcy jews
    <METNY_Justin>    the world today is run by fashion, so jewcy is just trying to make being jewish more hip and make jews secular or not show they are jewish and proud
    <CHUSYcomm04>    mor! I was kinda in your room at fall boards
    <MamboZ416>    hells yea we are
    <CHUSYcomm04>    but yea okay jewcy jews
    <Gabe_C>    Thank you, Justin
    <mor>    what is jewcy jews
    <mor>    i'm trying to figure this out
    <mor>    and... i'm thinking it just a shirt that says that... but i could be wrong
    <Shari>    i think that although it is a little annoying for people who actually practice and care about judaism to see people only express it through shrits, but frankly, being connected to judasim by a shirt is better than not being connected at all
    <MamboZ416>    word...
    <Shari>    thanks man
    <MikeLandes>    Gabe, you're being hypocritical....first you argued against it, now you condone it
    <noga_tzafon>    wait...how is someone who ahppens to be wearing a shirt...ONLY connected to judaism through a shirt/?
    <mor>    it's just a shirt
    <penina>    i dont get how a shirt can sonnect you to judaism!
    <mor>    i think that if people want to wear their religion on their shirt that's fine
    <dean>    this isn't a structured debate, gabe's point is still valid
    <mor>    i dont' really see it as being a big problem...
    <Gabe_C>    Thanks, Dean
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    its not about being connected to judaism its about wearing  funny little shirt woohoo its for fun fun fun
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    fun
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    <Shari>    that's not what i'm talking about.. i'm talking about the people who wear the shirt but don't care about judaism outside that.. that obviouisly isn't everyone who wears the shirt
    <MikeLandes>    i respect your opinion, but mine will not be swayed
    <METNY_Justin>    it connects you because it states im jewish but im jewish and i dont need to say flat out im jewish look at me
    <dean>    if anyone else doubts gabe, I got a rebuttal
    <CHUSYcomm04>    Noga, I think that Shari was trying to say is that sometimes people might b\not be connected to Judaism at all so if they wear a shirt that says, "Shaina Punim" then they're semi connected to Judaism...possibly even the most that they are EVER connected
    <MamboZ614>    woah i got disconnected and signed back on on this
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    <mor>    haha yay for avi!
    <noga_tzafon>    oh sorry, i misunderstood
    <dean>    it's fine, it seperates us from the rest of society, often a good thing
    <MamboZ614>    and it makes them easier for us to spot them and get them involved
    <mor>    i agree
    <Shari>    lol.. usy memkad police
    <MamboZ614>    exactly :)
    <mor>    i think that in a way this shirt brings some people closer
    <Shari>    cool shirt, wanna join usy?
    <mor>    cuz you'er like... wow i'm jewish too
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    You know...id love to see someone wearing one of those shirts one day..cause ten id be MUCH MUCH easier for me to find myself a fellow jew
    <Gabe_C>    IF it brings people closer, then it's ok
    <Shari>    true
    <MamboZ614>    woohoo i made a point!
    <MamboZ614>    im excited
    <Jewcy_Jew>    i'm out guys
    <MikeLandes>    ok guys.....this was a really good discussion....i need to get going, but i hope to see you guys here some other day
    <Jewcy_Jew>    gabe... feel free to call me!
    <dean>    it may also create distaste among the rest of society towards jews
    <MamboZ614>    i was sittin forever trying to catch on to what yall were talkin bout
    <mor>    haha you're so awesome avi!
    <Shari>    its like seeing someone wearing a shirt with hebrew on it and you get excited.. except its english
    <METNY_Justin>    how bout this...there is tons of incidence of hate in public schools so im jewish and i wear a shirt saying im jewish look at me is that an open invitation for some idiot to offend me due to my religion
    <Gabe_C>    Jewcy_Jew, feel free to find me on the listserve
    <dean>    scallling someone a motherf**ker isn't very beneficial
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    <USYNerd>    i'd like to throw in one point, i'm not sure the answer to this question, but, what is the differnce between the jewcy jews shirts and some of our USY shirts
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    <Shari>    well, that's like what's happening in france where they aren't letting anyone where anything remotely religious to school
    <MamboZ614>    absolutely nothing
    <dean>    jewcy shirts can be damn offensive to the rest of society
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    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    big deal so they offend you..get used to it...were jews and were smarter and stronger than some idiots offensive words
    <mor>    how so?
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    <mor>    how are the jewcy shirts offensive?
    <dean>    calling someone a motherf**ker
    <mor>    this is true
    <MamboZ416>    and anti semitism in public schools has reduced a lot
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    reduced?
    <dean>    it doesn't offend me, just other groups that may already believe in antisemitism
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    are you sure about that?
    <Gabe_C>    Jewcy Jew shirts just show that they're vaguely connected to Judaism, USY shirts show that they at least went to some event and tried to get mildly involved
    <mor>    i don't know... in my school it went up
    <dean>    or just have no true opinion
    <cpm010>    i still feel anti-semitism..but not in a blatent ofensive way.
    <mor>    i don't think anti semitism is going to be reduced any time soon
    <noga_tzafon>    ok there are 2 different topics here...the motherf**ker, and the jewcy jew...mother f**ker being offensive. and jewcy jew (i personally believe) to be up to the wearer to decide to wear or not (im  a personal fan of the "yo semite")
    <dean>    but why stir the feelings?
    <dean>    why incerease them
    <USYNerd>    i feel uncomfortable wearing anything that shows support for israel
    <MamboZ416>    well the differnece between jewcy jew shirt and usy shirt is that hopefully ur average wearer of a jewcy jew shirt will eventually get some usy shirts!
    <CHUSYcomm04>    Also, I'm not going to lie, sometimes this is a way to educate people. As weird as that sounds, it's true. I go to public school with a decent amount of Jews, but whenever I wear my Pinwheel sweatshirt (written in Hebrew) non Jews usually ask me what it means...so in a way they kinda learn something
    <dean>    USY shirts don't conenct to stereotypes either
    <mor>    i feel awesome wearing shirt supporting israel
    <Shari>    well will a little agitation cause information spreading?
    <USYNerd>    i don't mind wearing shirts with hebrew, but i always get stares when it's my IDF shirt, a shirt that supports israel, or something that says USY Stands with israel
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    <cpm010>    anti-semitism, to me, like all other prejudices is someting that the group puts upon itself, it forces them to feel that way in a type of self pity.  In my opininon, only when it gets violent is there an issue.
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    more than nething I think these shirts can reduce hate...or at least ignorance..thats all anti smeitism is schools ever is..so make them laugh about it. theyll be more tolerant
    <mor>    it's my home land... and i'm not ashamed of making sure people know i'm damn proud of it
    <MamboZ416>    i wear israel shirts whenever i get the chance
    <cpm010>    yaay israel shirts
    <MamboZ416>    i like supportin israel advocacy
    <mor>    i think it's important to show support for israel
    <Gabe_C>    I wear Jewish shirts whenever I can
    <Hanegevhateshurricanes>    who doesnt
    <MamboZ416>    just like i dont feel weird goin out in public with a kippah
    <mor>    especially at a time like this
    <Shari>    can we teach through our jewish shirts?.. i know i wore a shirt with hebrew on it from rosh hanikra today and lots of nonJews in my southern high school were asking me about it and i was teaching them about eretz yisrael
    <Gabe_C>    Then again, I go to a Jewish school, so never mind