Chat Archive: 11/3/2002

This chat was run on November 3, 2002 from 9 PM EST to 11 PM EST. The topic was Should Euthanasia/Assisted Suicide be Legalized?. This chat was different; it was a debate chat. The main difference here was that there were two teams, and for the first half an hour, they got to debate the issue. Then everyone else could talk, and at the end of the chat, people voted on which team they think won the debate.

Read on to see which side won!

Session Start: Sun Nov 03 20:00:00 2002
Session Ident: #chatusy
[20:00] *** Now talking in #chatusy
[20:00] *** ChanServ sets mode: +nt
[20:00] *** ChanServ changes topic to 'Debate Chat - Should Euthanasia/Assisted Suicide be Legalized?'
[20:05] *** Sir_BrianRosenberg_CaptB has joined #chatusy
[20:06] <Sir_BrianRosenberg_CaptB> hi
[20:06] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:07] <Robyn> hi
[20:13] <Sir_BrianRosenberg_CaptB> what time can regulars post?
[20:14] *** Sir_BrianRosenberg_CaptB is now known as Sir_BrianRosenberg_Tzafon
[20:14] <Sir_BrianRosenberg_Tzafon> ?
[20:15] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:15] <Jason_Lustig> sorry
[20:15] <Jason_Lustig> i was on the phone
[20:16] <Jason_Lustig> 9:30
[20:17] <Jason_Lustig> though i may extend it a few minutes if there is more to debate
[20:17] *** Avi_reled has joined #chatusy
[20:19] *** Sir_Swusalot has joined #chatusy
[20:19] <Jason_Lustig> hi guys
[20:19] <Jason_Lustig> you might want to change your names to have your name in it
[20:19] <Jason_Lustig> and also to have your team in it
[20:20] *** Sir_BrianRosenberg_Tzafon is now known as Sir_BrianRosenberg_TeamB
[20:20] <Sir_BrianRosenberg_TeamB> ok
[20:20] <Jason_Lustig> like, for example, avi_reled could be avi_pinwheel_teamB
[20:20] <Jason_Lustig> it's also good to have your region in it
[20:20] *** Sir_BrianRosenberg_TeamB is now known as Sir_Brian_Tzafon_TeamB
[20:20] *** Sir_Swusalot is now known as Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille
[20:20] <Sir_Brian_Tzafon_TeamB> ok
[20:20] <Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille> how's that?
[20:21] <Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille> ack
[20:21] <Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille> there
[20:21] <Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille> ack
[20:21] <Sir_Brian_Tzafon_TeamB> ok
[20:21] <Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille> show up r
[20:21] *** Sir_Brian_Tzafon_TeamB is now known as Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB
[20:21] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> ?
[20:21] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> they will be here
[20:21] *** Sir_Swusalot_TeamB_NathanMille is now known as SirSwusalot_TeamB_NathanMiller
[20:21] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> any team a ers here
[20:21] <SirSwusalot_TeamB_NathanMiller> here we go
[20:22] *** SirSwusalot_TeamB_NathanMiller is now known as Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[20:22] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> who's robyn?
[20:22] <Jason_Lustig> aha
[20:24] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> afk
[20:24] <Jason_Lustig> ?
[20:24] *** Avi_reled has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:25] *** Miss_Avi_RelEd has joined #chatusy
[20:25] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> hi
[20:26] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> is there any team a comming?
[20:26] <Miss_Avi_RelEd> I am from team b, The name is Katrina, call me Avi.
[20:26] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:26] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> ok
[20:27] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> i dont think any a will show
[20:27] <Miss_Avi_RelEd> brb... I'm putting my Region in my nick name
[20:27] *** Miss_Avi_RelEd has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:27] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> k
[20:27] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> take out reled
[20:28] *** Miss_Pinwheel_Avi has joined #chatusy
[20:28] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> nice
[20:28] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi> back
[20:28] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi> humm... maybe I should put Teamb at the end, what do you think?
[20:28] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> yup
[20:28] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> you don't have to leave to do that
[20:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> change it up at the top
[20:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> and jase, afk means away from keyboard
[20:29] <Jason_Lustig> aha
[20:29] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi> there... its rather long though!
[20:30] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi> ah!! It didn't work!
[20:30] *** Miss_Pinwheel_Avi is now known as Miss_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
[20:30] <Jason_Lustig> thats good
[20:30] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> there
[20:31] <Miss_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Hey Jason...
[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> ?
[20:31] *** Rebecca__FarWEst has joined #chatusy
[20:31] *** Miss_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB is now known as Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
[20:31] *** Rebecca__FarWEst has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:31] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Welcome Rebecca, team a, b or onlooker?
[20:32] <Robyn> hey
[20:32] *** Rebecca__FarWEst has joined #chatusy
[20:32] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lo
[20:32] <Robyn> im robyn
[20:32] <Robyn> im just here to watch the debate
[20:32] <Robyn> sorry.l..i was away
[20:33] <Robyn> what did imiss?
[20:33] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> its all good
[20:33] <Rebecca__FarWEst> who is the speaker for each team?
[20:34] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Sir Brian is the captain of our team, he asigns who speaks at what time in our group.
[20:34] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> Thank you my lady
[20:34] *** lady_ezscrewsy_tania_TeamB has joined #chatusy
[20:34] *** Rebecca__FarWEst is now known as Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA
[20:34] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Your welcome my Dear Sir.
[20:35] <Robyn> hehe
[20:35] <lady_ezscrewsy_tania_TeamB> I really don't like these names
[20:35] <Robyn> im so confused..but thats okay...
[20:35] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> you will pull threw
[20:35] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> its team pride
[20:35] <Jason_Lustig> i see
[20:35] <lady_ezscrewsy_tania_TeamB> I feel like a moron
[20:36] *** lady_ezscrewsy_tania_TeamB is now known as lady_ecrusy_garsh_TeamB
[20:36] <lady_ecrusy_garsh_TeamB> this is better
[20:36] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> ok...
[20:38] <Robyn> hehe
[20:39] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> hey before we start does anyone know any websites abot AIDS and the United States?
[20:40] *** Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB has left #chatusy
[20:40] <Jason_Lustig> um
[20:40] *** Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB has joined #chatusy
[20:40] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> left for a sec there
[20:41] <lady_ecrusy_garsh_TeamB> silly brian
[20:41] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> trix are for kids
[20:41] *** ybu531 has joined #chatusy
[20:41] <lady_ecrusy_garsh_TeamB> hehe
[20:41] *** lady_ecrusy_garsh_TeamB is now known as Lady_ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[20:41] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> any team A here?
[20:41] <Jason_Lustig> hi ybu531!
[20:41] <Robyn> do a search on dogpile
[20:41] *** Lady_ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB is now known as Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[20:41] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> em
[20:41] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> me
[20:42] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:42] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> nice
[20:42] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> one team a
[20:42] <ybu531> hey
[20:42] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> loner
[20:42] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> are you team a capt?
[20:42] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> he dont be mean
[20:42] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i would imagine
[20:42] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> kiddin
[20:42] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> judge joury and executioner
[20:42] *** ybu531 has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:42] *** Howie_from_EPA has joined #chatusy
[20:43] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> ok... Howie, team a, b or veiwer?
[20:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> haha
[20:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i think i screwed the title
[20:44] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:44] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> possibly
[20:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> does anyone else see: Wahoo!
[20:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> ?
[20:44] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> nope
[20:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> darn
[20:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> !!! You"re not a channel operator.
[20:45] <Jason_Lustig> ?
[20:45] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> huh!!!
[20:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> forget it
[20:45] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:45] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> i have my trance music goen now
[20:45] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> that means its all over for team a
[20:45] *** Howie_from_EPA has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:46] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> hey now dont knock me down yet
[20:46] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> trance music!
[20:46] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> enigma
[20:46] *** Howie_from_EPA has joined #chatusy
[20:46] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> french trance misic
[20:46] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> We are not knocking anyone down, we are debating an issue.
[20:47] *** dmohrer has joined #chatusy
[20:47] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> So please note that team b and team a
[20:47] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> after is all said and done
[20:47] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> I love Rick Recht
[20:47] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> the winning team captan buys everone a non alcholic digital drink
[20:48] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> you just offered it yourself...
[20:48] *** Howie_from_EPA has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:48] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> or you can buy us all presents
[20:48] *** dmohrer has left #chatusy
[20:48] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:48] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> hehehe
[20:48] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> remember.....Tania's b-day is at IC
[20:48] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> lol
[20:48] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> :-)
[20:48] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> french!
[20:48] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> quoi?
[20:49] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> who is going to ic here?
[20:49] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> ic?
[20:49] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> international convention
[20:49] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> ME!!!
[20:49] *** USYer6318 has joined #chatusy
[20:50] <Robyn> i am! soo excited
[20:50] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> Robyn, where are you from?
[20:50] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> I don't know yet if I am...
[20:50] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> and who's on Stag's flight? what what?
[20:50] *** Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:51] <Robyn> metny
[20:51] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> fun times
[20:51] *** Robyn is now known as Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[20:51] *** Robyn_Metny_TeamA has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:51] *** Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB has joined #chatusy
[20:51] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> got kicked off
[20:52] *** Robyn_Metny_TeamA has joined #chatusy
[20:52] *** Cheerleader05 has joined #chatusy
[20:53] *** Cheerleader05 has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:53] *** Hagalilsprincess05 has joined #chatusy
[20:53] *** mel-crusy has joined #chatusy
[20:53] <mel-crusy> hi
[20:54] <Hagalilsprincess05> hey
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> hi guys
[20:54] <mel-crusy> how is every one?
[20:54] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> pumped, man
[20:54] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> hehe
[20:54] <Hagalilsprincess05> great
[20:54] <mel-crusy> lol
[20:54] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> :-D
[20:54] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> "How are you gentleman ?"
[20:54] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> whats the url for this chata gain
[20:54] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> chat.usy.org
[20:54] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> chat.usy.org
[20:54] <mel-crusy> this lady is doin' fine
[20:54] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> beat ya
[20:54] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> ooh, beat you to it
[20:55] <mel-crusy> lol
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> no i did
[20:55] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> no I did
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> ack
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> who did, someone else?
[20:55] <mel-crusy> rock paper siccors settles all
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> on my computer it says i did
[20:55] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> Jason, problem with the chat!
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> what
[20:55] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> Stag can fix all
[20:55] <mel-crusy> sir swusalot did
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> yes!
[20:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> haha!
[20:55] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> mine says I did
[20:55] *** Hagalilsprincess05 has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:55] <mel-crusy> lol
[20:55] <mel-crusy> oh yea?? well mine says i did and i din't even typ it...beat that!!!! lol
[20:56] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> a victory!
[20:56] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> the first in a chain
[20:56] <mel-crusy> lol
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> ok guys
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> the chat will start soon...
[20:56] *** swirskoff has joined #chatusy
[20:56] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> ok
[20:56] <mel-crusy> ok
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> hi swirskoff!
[20:56] <swirskoff> wat up
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> not too much
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> what region are you from?
[20:56] <mel-crusy> nodda u?
[20:57] *** R-AFK has joined #chatusy
[20:57] <swirskoff> tzafon
[20:57] *** mattf has joined #chatusy
[20:57] <Jason_Lustig> good deal
[20:57] *** R-AFK is now known as Gregg`Roman
[20:57] <Gregg`Roman> tis me :P
[20:57] <Jason_Lustig> mwaha
[20:57] <Gregg`Roman> Ey stag
[20:57] *** USYer6318 has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:57] <Gregg`Roman> what!? :P
[20:57] <swirskoff> who else is in tzafon in here
[20:57] <mel-crusy> not i!! i'm a crusy chick
[20:58] <Gregg`Roman> heh mel :P
[20:58] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> ecrusy!
[20:58] <Jason_Lustig> i am a tzafonik
[20:58] <Jason_Lustig> because tzafon rules!
[20:58] <Gregg`Roman> no wonder he's so weird :P
[20:58] <mel-crusy> lol
[20:58] <swirskoff> holla!!!!!!!!!
[20:58] <mel-crusy> who's so wierd?
[20:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> ya, i agree, tzafon rules... second only to SWUSY!!!
[20:58] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> no...just the cheap flights out of tzafon rule
[20:58] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> hmm..my friend is trying to get in here and its not working
[20:58] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> gimmie the url one more time..lol
[20:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> **does a swusy dance**
[20:58] *** USYer0594 has joined #chatusy
[20:58] * Gregg`Roman is using IRC
[20:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> chat.usy.org
[20:58] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> chat.usy.org
[20:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> haha!
[20:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> won again!
[20:59] <mattf> ok
[20:59] * Gregg`Roman slaps Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB around a bit with a large trout
[20:59] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> NO YOU DIDN'T
[20:59] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> thank you gregg
[20:59] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> how do you do irc?
[20:59] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> yes i did
[20:59] <Gregg`Roman> any time :P
[20:59] <mel-crusy> ??
[20:59] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> dont mess with it now
[20:59] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> its go time
[20:59] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> hehe
[20:59] <mel-crusy> large trout?
[20:59] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> mel, who won this time?
[20:59] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> are you ready to rumble
[20:59] *** niki has joined #chatusy
[20:59] <mel-crusy> hold on gotta check
[20:59] <Gregg`Roman> trout are fun
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> hi niki!
[20:59] *** niki has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[20:59] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> where's the rest of our team?
[20:59] <mel-crusy> sir again
[21:00] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> not here
[21:00] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> wahoo!
[21:00] <mel-crusy> u have to mcuh fun
[21:00] *** Mikez has joined #chatusy
[21:00] <mel-crusy> i'd offerto hoin ur team since there not here but i donon't knwo the topic
[21:00] *** USYer0594 has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:01] <mel-crusy> and i can't type appearntly
[21:01] *** niki has joined #chatusy
[21:01] * Mikez shoots a poisonous dart into Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB's neck with a blowgun
[21:01] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> it'll be okay mel
[21:01] <mel-crusy> lol
[21:01] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> no killing here
[21:01] *** niki has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:01] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> mikez rocks
[21:01] *** mattf has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:01] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> how do you do that tho?
[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> /me does something
[21:01] <mel-crusy> u people r mean...if ur shootin' stuff us a paintball gun or a paintball blowgun
[21:02] <mel-crusy> *use
[21:02] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> Jason....huh?
[21:02] * mel-crusy says hi
[21:02] * Mikez lashes out and hits mel-crusy with the Big Stick®
[21:02] <Jason_Lustig> that how you do it
[21:02] <mel-crusy> lol
[21:02] *** melissa has joined #chatusy
[21:02] <Jason_Lustig> hi melissa!
[21:02] * mel-crusy slaps mikez
[21:02] * Mikez ponks mel-crusy
[21:03] *** buscgirl has joined #chatusy
[21:03] * Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB nukes the room
[21:03] * Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB kicks sir_swusalot_nathan_teamb
[21:03] * mel-crusy hits mikez w/ a teddy bear
[21:03] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> yeehaw
[21:03] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> haha
[21:03] * Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB says: dammit! no more emotes!
[21:03] <mel-crusy> lol
[21:03] *** Michael_Ferman has joined #chatusy
[21:03] * Mikez wonders what the odd sounds are coming out of Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA's bunk. The thuds don't bother Mikez, but the wookie mating call is some scary sh*t!
[21:03] <mel-crusy> lol
[21:04] <mel-crusy> u mean this callo??? wooooohooooowoooohoooo>?
[21:04] <mel-crusy> *call
[21:04] *** Jordan has joined #chatusy
[21:04] *** Hava_ECRUSY has joined #chatusy
[21:04] * Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB wonders why ferman is in a usy chat room
[21:04] *** buscgirl has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> hey guys
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> let's calm down a little
[21:04] <mel-crusy> lol
[21:04] *** buscgirl has joined #chatusy
[21:04] <swirskoff> way to take charge lustig
[21:04] <mel-crusy> i think i've had a littlebit of sometin' i probably shouldn't have had tonight
[21:04] * Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB loves Hava
[21:04] <Gregg`Roman> who the hell is that mikez person
[21:04] *** Jordan has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:04] <Gregg`Roman> :P
[21:05] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> yes. please. we need to keep this thing sivil , MATURE and ORGANISED
[21:05] <mel-crusy> sme guy i hite over the head w/ a TEDDY BEAR!!!
[21:05] <Gregg`Roman> I'm angry tonight
[21:05] <Gregg`Roman> civil you mean?
[21:05] <Gregg`Roman> :P
[21:05] *** Dvrgrl23 has joined #chatusy
[21:05] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +m
[21:05] <Jason_Lustig> Hello elveryone!
[21:05] <Jason_Lustig> welcome to the debate chat
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[21:05] <Jason_Lustig> The issue that we will be discussing is: Should euthanasia be legalized?
[21:05] <Jason_Lustig> Now, before we begin, let's do our usual shtick
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> on the count of three, everyone IM three people and tell them to come!
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> one
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> two
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> THREE!
[21:06] * Jason_Lustig goes and IMs people
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[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> ok
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> so first, let's have everyone who is debating introduce themselves
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> actually, i'll change my mind
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> Team A is arguing that euthanasia SHOULD BE legalized
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> Team B is arguing that euthanasia SHOULD NOT BE legalized
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> Team B will be starting
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[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> you have 1 minute, 30 seconds for your opening statement (pro-euthanasia)
[21:08] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> go
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[21:08] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> 15 years ago, I was born. I was put on this Earth with one goal in G-d's mind: to live life. A life that G-d gave me, a life that is holy. That goal is not to die when I or another feels like it. That goal is not to kill myself or to allow someone to help me commit suicide, when i suddenly decide I want to. That goal is a goal that, in our religion, Judaism, is sacred. We are not allowed and should not be allowed to compromise
[21:09] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> Every Yom Kippur, we read a passage that says: "For my sake was the world created." This is an extremely good reason why we should not compromise this goal. The earth should not exist without us. But, on the other hand, we read the next passage: "I am dust." Who are we to destroy our own lives?
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[21:09] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> We need to keep euthanasia illegal
[21:09] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> for many reasons, not just for Judaism, although it is the most important
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[21:10] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> In this room, we are all jews
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[21:10] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> That is what we all have in common, along with one other thing: We have no right to kill ourselves
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[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> 15 seconds left
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[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> ok your time is up
[21:11] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> Next, team b - pro-legalization
[21:11] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:11] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> there are other people, particularly who have been severely injured, in great trauma, who go through a period of depression, and who would at that time wish to die. In the cases where it is against the patient’s wishes, that death be postponed by every means available is contrary to law and practice. It is also cruel and inhumane.
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> I meant Team a
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> (sorry)
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[21:12] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Derek Humphry said "A caring society... offers euthanasia to a hopelessly sick person as an act of love."
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[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> 15 seconds
[21:12] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> By forcing those who are in pain and severely depressed to stay alive is torture. Those who have been tin these situations say they would prefer to die, who are we to say go against their wishes
[21:13] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
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[21:13] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> you have 30 seconds, team b
[21:13] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> one cannot die without affecting others. Everyone is known and loved by at least one other person at all times
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> (anti-legalization)
[21:14] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> basically, if you kill someone, you'll be affecting others who loved
[21:14] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> them
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> 10 seconds
[21:14] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> you woj't just be affecting the one perosn
[21:14] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
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[21:15] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA
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[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> you have 30 seconds
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[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> you're out of time...
[21:16] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA
[21:16] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
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[21:17] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> when you commit seurcide
[21:17] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> you hurt the emotional status of all of those around you
[21:17] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> during thier lives everone is loved by someone
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> time is up
[21:18] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB
[21:18] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:18] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> As for the religious aspect of this topic, Orthodox Jews believe that active steps by a physician to hasten death violate the sanctity of human life. Conservative and Reform leaders have called for increased discussion of end-of-life issues but not issued official positions on assisted dying
[21:18] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> In addition, as for those who believe that this shouldn’t be the decision of the one in pain, because others are affected, would you want your family member or close one to live his life in pain?
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[21:18] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> there are also many myths about this
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[21:19] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Myth - Legalizing physician aid in dying will encourage large numbers of desperate people to kill themselves.
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> time's up
[21:19] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Truth - Since the implementation of its Death with Dignity Act in late 1997, only 91 terminally ill Oregonians have chosen to hasten their deaths. The majority of these patients suffered from terminal cancer, and all were determined to have less than six months to live. The 91 assisted deaths represent .08 percent of the more than 100,000 Oregonians who died during the same period of time.
[21:19] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:19] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
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[21:19] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> the jewish religion states clearly that life is to be cherished
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[21:20] <Jason_Lustig> 5 seconds
[21:20] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> in deuteronomuy it says that venishmartem meod al naphsechalsim
[21:20] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB
[21:20] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA
[21:20] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:21] <Jason_Lustig> time's up
[21:21] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA
[21:21] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
[21:21] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:21] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> One of the main ideas of Judaism is to save a life, not take one. Healing, like Tikun Olam, u do not heal when you kill, u destroy.
[21:21] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> G-d does not like destroying, it pains him.
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[21:22] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> He created, and gave us the ability to create, why use what he gave for bad?
[21:22] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
[21:22] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
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[21:22] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> People who are supportive of euthanasia, whom we (the creators of this site) are, believe that ethanasia is an alternative to living a life filled with pain and suffering. We feel it is completely moral, and that people should have the right to control their own lives. Feel that if euthanasia is legalized, patients could die painlessly, in the presence of their family and loved ones. People who are pro-euthanasia fee
[21:22] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Oregon passed the Death with Dignity Act.
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> 5 seconds
[21:23] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:23] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:23] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> This is a main quotation from the Hippocratic Oath, an oath all doctors are forced to swear to, an oath written by the father of medicine, Hippocrates.
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
[21:23] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> "I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art."
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[21:23] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> The way euthanasia is carried out costs about 5000$ per death (The victim has to "pull the string", meaning it has to be exhaust. Otherwise it's murder, not euthanasia.)
[21:23] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:23] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
[21:24] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Oregon passed the Death with Dignity Act.The Death with Dignity Act allows terminally ill Oregon residents to obtain from their physicians and use prescriptions for self-administered, lethal medications. The Act states that ending one's life in accordance with the law does not constitute suicide. The Death with Dignity Act legalizes physician aid in dying (the term used by the public and medical literature to describ
[21:24] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> tions) but specifically prohibits euthanasia, (where a physician or other person directly administers a medication to end another's life).
[21:24] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Well respected doctors agree as well
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[21:24] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Dr. Phillip Nitscke is a leading Austrailian Euthanasia Activist. He has developed a a computer program which allows the doctor performing the Euthanaisa to remove themselves from the room where the death will take place.
[21:24] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:24] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:24] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
[21:24] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> What would happen to our justice system if euthanasia was allowed? One could kill another and say that the man he killed asked him to help him commit suiside. The dead cannot talk so what is against him???
[21:25] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> Justice would break apart
[21:25] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:25] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
[21:25] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Other well respected doctors such as Jack Kevorkian agree.
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[21:25] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Jack Kevorkian is a man with strong convictions towards the morality of euthanasia: "doctor-assisted suicide, euthanaisa, and suicide are and always will be ethical, no matter what anybody says or thinks." He was born in Pontiac, Michegan on May 26, 1928. He enrolled in the University of Michegan at age 17, and he graduated from medical school in 1952. SInce June 4, 1990 Kevorkian has performed more than 100 assisted
[21:25] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> m these euthanasias. For example, Dr. Kevorkian has lost his license to practice medicine, has been taken to court, and has been thrown in jail.
[21:25] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:25] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
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[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:25] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> What would happen to our justice system if it was allowed? A man could kill another man and say that the man he killed asked him to help him commit suiside. The dead cannot talk so what is against him???
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[21:26] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> people could just say that it was assisted
[21:26] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> even if it wasn't...
[21:26] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[21:26] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
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[21:26] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> in a poll given:
[21:26] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Polling/Sponsoring Organizations: Harris Interactive
[21:26] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Question: "Do you think that the law should allow doctors to comply with the wishes of a dying patient in severe distress who asks to have his or her life ended, or not?”
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[21:27] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Responses:
[21:27] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Yes, should allow” - 65%
[21:27] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
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[21:27] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:27] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> What would ever make our life that bad that we must kill ourselves? There is always help, there is always someone we can find to talk to.
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[21:27] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> We can find a friend, there are help lines
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[21:28] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> we can get help
[21:28] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> suiside is just an easy way out
[21:28] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> so we don't have to face our problems
[21:28] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB
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[21:28] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:28] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds go
[21:28] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Many things can make our life so bad that we would be forced toactually want to die. Though it is hard to think, it is painful to live life everyday not being able to get out of bed, or having to take cupfuuls of pills daily
[21:29] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> just as we respect a dying person with other things, we shoudl repspect his wishes
[21:29] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> A dying patient's personal choices should be given the utmost respect.
[21:29] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:29] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> Going back to my first argument about Judaism, these are examples of why euthanasia is wrong, quoted directly from the torah.
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
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[21:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> The commandment: "Thou shall not kill".. Life and Death I place before you, the blessing and the curse, you shall choose life -Deuteronomy 30:19.. "venishmartem meod al naphsechem" which basically means to guard your life very carefully, also in Deuteronomy.. you cannot put your body in danger. (this stands for both ppl involved. Killing one's self is obviously dangerous, but assisting is fairly dangerous).. Finally, Man is
[21:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> of god.
[21:29] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> This is never acceptable.. Never Acceptable
[21:29] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
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[21:30] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:30] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> Orthodox Jews believe that active steps by a physician to hasten death violate the sanctity of human life. Conservative and Reform leaders have called for increased discussion of end-of-life issues but not issued official positions on assisted dying.
[21:30] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> A lot of people think that euthanasia or assisted suicide is needed so patients won’t be forced to remain alive by being "hooked up" to machines. But the law already permits patients or their surrogates to withhold or withdraw unwanted medical treatment even if that increases the likelihood that the patient will die. Thus, no one needs to be hooked up to machines against their will.
[21:30] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> person alive. Insistence, against the patient’s wishes, that death be postponed by every means available is contrary to law and practice. It is also cruel and inhumane.
[21:30] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> There comes a time when continued attempts to cure are not compassionate, wise, or medically sound. That’s when hospice, including in-home hospice care, can be of great help. That is the time when all efforts should be directed to making the patient’s remaining time comfortable. Then, all interventions should be directed to alleviating
[21:30] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:30] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[21:30] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> The commandment of dont murder "Thou shall not kill" plain and simple.... pulling the plug on someone's ventilator, or injecting them with whatever is killing them....also, man was created in Gods image, therefore it should be G-d's choice as to when a person dies....
[21:30] <Jason_Lustig> 30 seconds
[21:30] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> G-d gives life, G-d should take it away
[21:31] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> simple
[21:31] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> OK now we're about to end the "debate" part
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> each team now has 1 minute for the "closing statement"
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> first, team A
[21:31] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> 1 minute
[21:31] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> The process would be done with respect as well, as they would respect the patient and allowing him to make the decision. All clinicians who work with the terminally ill should be trained in pain and symptom management and in direct, honest communication with patients and their families. Hospice should be expanded and promoted as the standard of care, available to all terminally ill patients. If a terminally ill pat
[21:31] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> liate, the situation constitutes a medical emergency and requires a compassionate medical response. Physician aid in dying should be the response of last resort: used infrequently, when requested by a competent patient, and subject to rigorous safeguards.
[21:32] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> This is a Last resort. I know I owuldnt want loved ones in pain on a daily basis. I want my family to be happy living their life, and i want to respect their decisions even when it comes to life itself
[21:32] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Robyn_Metny_TeamA
[21:32] <Jason_Lustig> Last, team B
[21:33] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:33] <Jason_Lustig> 1 minute
[21:33] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> I have four quick words: Our opponents cannot win. Everything they have said has been contradictory to the Torah, and impractical. There is no way that Judaism or our Nations could ever do such a horrible thing as destroy lives legally.
[21:33] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> My arguments have been short and to the point
[21:33] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> our opponents have dragged out long arguments, to make it look like they have substance
[21:33] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> I have not needed to do this, because our arguments HAVE substance, HAVE practicality
[21:34] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -v Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> ok that's the end of the "debate"
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> now, everyone can talk :)
[21:34] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -m
[21:34] <Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB> yeehaw
[21:34] <swusyRon> nathan
[21:34] <swusyRon> weirdo
[21:34] <Hoochie> speech, i can speak
[21:34] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> my fingers hurt!
[21:34] <Shari> yay robyn...
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> ok, so what does everyone think -- should euthanasia/assissted suicide be legalized?
[21:34] * Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB claps ron
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> i think it SHOULD be legalized
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[21:34] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i agree
[21:35] * Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB wonders if she can change her nickname now?
[21:35] <Rebecca_Far_West_TeamA> should
[21:35] * Jason_Lustig thinks she can
[21:35] <Samuel--Tzafon> I think it should be legalized, too.
[21:35] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> I am against it.
[21:35] <ArthurDenture> i think people are confusing between pulling the plug, actively killing someone in the doctor's office, and giving your friend pills
[21:35] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> as to what i said before i wouldnt want my family member to be in pain every day no matter how much i would miss them
[21:35] * Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB thanks Stag profusely
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> because, simply, should be people be forced to live a prolonged death in agony?
[21:35] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> it shouldnt be allowed
[21:35] *** Lady_Ecrusy_Garsh_TeamB is now known as Garsh
[21:35] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> however, when we enter the voting phase, we need not vote on our personal opinions
[21:35] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> you body isnt yous to kill
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[21:35] <Hoochie> then whos is it?
[21:35] *** Your has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:35] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> although many do believe one way or another, please vote on performance, and logic. Not personal feelings
[21:35] <ArthurDenture> the argument that "someone could kill someone else and claim it was assisted suicide" is bogus, since this would only legalize it for doctors
[21:35] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> you body is g-d's, he made you and when it is yuour time he will unmake you
[21:36] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> G-d is the ultamite person. He put us here, he made us. He is in control, he can do whatever. We have no right to go against him or his creation. WHAT RIGHT HAVE WE TO DESTROY WHAT IS NOT OURS???
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> well
[21:36] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> What if a doctor wanted someone dead?
[21:36] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> does that mean you want to live in pain EVERY day?
[21:36] <Garsh> thanx Nate
[21:36] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> then they could justy kill the,
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> "euthanasia" literally means "good death"
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[21:36] <Hoochie> i thought u were made when the sperm and egg came together, call me crazy
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> it does not mean always euthanasia
[21:36] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> no death is good
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> it means dying in a good way
[21:36] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> it means little chineese kids
[21:36] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> ok, who created that sperm and egg?
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> like, dying peacefully
[21:36] <ArthurDenture> i'm sure there would be a bunch of forms etc. to keep doctors from killing people randomly
[21:36] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> haha!
[21:36] <Garsh> we weren't discussing abortions tho
[21:36] * Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB claps with Brian
[21:36] <Hoochie> i dunno if thats usy chat appropriate
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> well both ideas are related
[21:36] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i know, but it's almost the same thing
[21:36] <HanefeshComm> I think it should be illegal, no one should help some one else die.
[21:36] <Hoochie> what if they wanna die
[21:37] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Living in pain.. ya right! U choose the way you live! You can get help!
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> well the first issue is, is suicide right?
[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> then they should wait
[21:37] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> euthenasia is a terrible thing
[21:37] <Hoochie> if they are in like pain to the 10th power
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[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> to expire on their personal expiration date
[21:37] <Hoochie> multiply by 5
[21:37] <rgchatterbox> if the person is sick it should be legal
[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> no human should decide another human's expiration date
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[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> or even their own
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[21:37] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> who then should deciude when its legal
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[21:37] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i disagree
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> well what about people who KNOW they are going to die? not like someoen who (God forbid) dies in a car accident or something
[21:37] <Sir_Tzafon_Brian_TeamB> where is the line drawn
[21:37] <hurricane> were not food that expires
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> they know theya re going to die
[21:37] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> there is a reason why suicide is prohibited by halachah
[21:37] <hurricane> were human beings
[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> there are organizations like Hospice to deal with people that are dying in extreme pain
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> why die painfully, when they can die peacefully?
[21:37] <ArthurDenture> though i do see the halachic issues, i don't think it's our place to tell someone who is suffering that they shouldn't consider euthanasia.
[21:37] * Garsh loves hurricane
[21:37] <ArthurDenture> only they know how much they are suffering
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> i don't cosidere euthanasia to be suicide
[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> and going back to the argument that they know they will die
[21:37] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> I know i will die
[21:38] <ArthurDenture> and it's the ultimate in hutzpah to judge for that person
[21:38] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> it could be in a year
[21:38] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i would rather die myself then to see my mother or sister, or father or anyone in pain..such pain like that...every day..it would hurt me more than real pain itself..i dont even want to think about it
[21:38] <HanefeshComm> Suicide is illegal, if you fail, you get punished. So why should euthanasia be legal?
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> well when someone KNOWS they will die of a certain disease that they have
[21:38] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> could be in 50 years, could be tomarrow
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> say for example advanced cancer
[21:38] <rgchatterbox> its quality of life, who wants their last month to suck?
[21:38] <Garsh> I know I'm gonna die...I don't want someone to impose it on me tho
[21:38] <Hoochie> so, anyone believe in angels
[21:38] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> Should I kill myself?
[21:38] <Hoochie> not right now
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> not now
[21:38] <hurricane> there are always exceptions to when doctors think youre going to dies
[21:38] <hurricane> die
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> but if you knew you were going to die in extreme pain in 3 months
[21:38] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> also, in judaism, it is stated: Children should bury their parents, not vice versa.
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> would you then kill yourself peacefully?
[21:38] <Hoochie> so michael ferman what do u think?
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[21:38] <Garsh> and if you last longer stag?
[21:38] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> id rather die than see people i love so much in pain like that every day..i wouldnt be able to handle it, i would have a breakdown....i get all upset even just thinking about it
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> well 3 months was an arbitrary number
[21:39] <rgchatterbox> no, but its a personal choice
[21:39] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> no, then i would seek help, from a place like hospice
[21:39] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> people have lived decades longer than their doctors thought they would
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[21:39] <rgchatterbox> between u and ur loved ones
[21:39] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> it's not a personal choice
[21:39] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> it is!
[21:39] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> it's g-d's choice
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> ok, so God decides that you die a painful death
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> why would God do that?
[21:39] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> so your saying it was also g-d's choice for you to be in pain?
[21:39] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> how do you know that the doctor isn't wrong
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> shouldn't we all die peacefully?
[21:39] <rgchatterbox> but it can b ur choice
[21:39] <Hoochie> b/c he can
[21:39] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> G-d is the only one to decide when we will be born, when we will die
[21:39] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> My Mother was pronounced dead upon getting to the hospital when she was in an accident, but she is alive and sitting here right beside me. Don't tell me doctors know when u are going to die, or even when you are dead ONLY G-D KNOWS AND CAN TELL THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:39] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> G-d might want us to be in pain: book of job
[21:39] <rgchatterbox> yet ppl take lives in their hand all the time
[21:39] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> do you think he (or she ..lol) wants you to be in painlike that every day?
[21:40] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but thats just horrible to consider...
[21:40] <Hoochie> he
[21:40] <Hoochie> i dunno
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> well consider this
[21:40] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> theres a difference between suicide and euthanasia
[21:40] <Hoochie> probably not
[21:40] <hurricane> but people can get over pain
[21:40] <Hoochie> so michael ferman, what do u think?
[21:40] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> yes there is
[21:40] <hurricane> once your dead thats it
[21:40] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> in the book of job, god destroyed Job. He destroyed his family, his life... until the point where he had only one breath.
[21:40] <rgchatterbox> u cant get over some pain
[21:40] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> euthenasia is sometimes homocide too
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[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> euthanasia can be very dangerous
[21:40] <rgchatterbox> not if u do it 2 urself
[21:40] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> in that last breath, job praised G-d, for one last time
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> there are people who would abuse it
[21:40] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> how is dangerous?
[21:41] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> and so g-d saved him
[21:41] <Hoochie> does anyone belive in angels?
[21:41] <rgchatterbox> n e thing can b abused though
[21:41] <rgchatterbox> i do
[21:41] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> It was almost a test, based on the indictor's cynicism
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> so we just need to protect people from being abused
[21:41] <Hoochie> how about angels in the outfield?
[21:41] <rgchatterbox> lol
[21:41] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> So... as you are helping your friend kill himself u are saying the Shma?? I wounder how impressed G-d would be??
[21:41] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> you cant compare this to a movie!
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> what about the hippocratic oath?
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> "do no harm"
[21:41] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> that's not what i'm saying
[21:42] <Hoochie> people die in movies too
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> now, is it doing harm to keep a patient alive and suffering?
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[21:42] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> yes it is
[21:42] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i'm simply saying that sometimes pain is necessary, maybe as a test of who we really are
[21:42] <rgchatterbox> its a personal choice, if u and ur loved ones feel its better that u go peacefully then u should be able 2
[21:42] <Hava_ECRUSY> but it's all in how you define harm, Jason
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> exactly
[21:42] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> after all, if we have done nefariously evil tasks in life, g-d could choose to test us to see if we really are bad, or just leaning on that side.
[21:43] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Its not a PERSONAL choice!!!! Its G-D's choice!!!! HE MADE US!! HE OWNS US!!! HE DECIDES WHEN WE DIE!!!!!!!!
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[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> I know people, like my grandfather, who have been told that they would die in a specific amount of time (1 week for him).
[21:43] <hagalilgrl> hey
[21:43] <Hoochie> i own me
[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> he's still living, over 10 years later
[21:43] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> DOES THAT MEAN HE DECIDEES when we should be in PAIN?
[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> he has one leg
[21:43] <rgchatterbox> listen, personally im against it, its not a choice i would make
[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> diabetes
[21:43] <rgchatterbox> but ive never been in that much pain.suffereing
[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> and he's had several heart attacks
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> what if you were told that unless you had a certain operation, you would die in a week for sure?
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> like amputating a leg or something
[21:43] <rgchatterbox> so how can u no wut others go through
[21:43] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> but g-d obviously wanted him to be in pain, and keep him alive afterwards
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[21:43] <hagalilgrl> i would probably leave it up to my family
[21:43] <rgchatterbox> dctrs arent always right
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> would you amputate your legs to go on living even though it wouldn't be close to being what your life was?
[21:43] <hagalilgrl> thats true
[21:44] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Hoochie, I want to see you create yourself, your creator owns you, whether u like that idea or not.
[21:44] <rgchatterbox> yeah
[21:44] <hurricane> i would prefer to have the operation for sure
[21:44] <Hoochie> noone circles the wagon like the buffalo bills
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> well does God own us?
[21:44] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> halachah says you must
[21:44] <hagalilgrl> doctors told my grandma she would live with chemo but she died 11 months later
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> we certainly have free will
[21:44] <rgchatterbox> no
[21:44] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> no choice whatsoever
[21:44] <hagalilgrl> yea
[21:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> another point. I may be a guy, but stop referring to g-d as a 'he' or a 'him'. We are all in g-d's image, so g-d is neither male nor female
[21:44] <rgchatterbox> he made us but nothing can own a person
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> if we have free will then God does not own us
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> if God "owns" us then God determines everything we do
[21:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> right, jase, but we have free will only for what we do in life
[21:44] <hagalilgrl> not really
[21:44] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> not how long our life will be
[21:44] <hagalilgrl> ture
[21:44] <Hoochie> if god owns us, can god sell us?
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> yes we do have free will in that
[21:45] <hagalilgrl> no
[21:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> now
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> who could stop me if i decided to run into the middle of an intersection?
[21:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> no
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> nobody
[21:45] <Garsh> I think that every once in a while, G-d may throw us a curve ball in life, but it doesn't mean that givin the choice, we should take him up on the offer of death... there was a point when I was so sick and I wanted to die, but I knew that I would be okay afterwards
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> now, on the other hand, most of us wouldn't do that
[21:45] <Hoochie> why not?
[21:45] <rgchatterbox> we can control if we live or die
[21:45] <hagalilgrl> thats free will jase
[21:45] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> can you decide when you will be born?
[21:45] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Jason, G-d owns us but de did give us free will to do good and evil, but he told us to CHOOSE GOOD!
[21:45] <rgchatterbox> y do we stay away from drugs?
[21:45] <rgchatterbox> or other dangerous things?
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> of course we're supposed to choose good!
[21:45] <Hoochie> yea why?
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> but we CAN choose bad
[21:45] <hagalilgrl> because we knows it the right thing to do
[21:45] <rgchatterbox> to stay safe
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> now, there are no things that are entirely good or entirely bad
[21:45] <Hoochie> exactly
[21:45] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> we stay away from drugs so we don't harm ourselves
[21:45] <rgchatterbox> to protect ourselves from harm
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> self-mutilation
[21:46] <rgchatterbox> 2 me thats free will
[21:46] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> death is generally classified as harm
[21:46] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> you cant compare that to living in pain though
[21:46] <Hoochie> what if its painless death
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> premature death you mean?
[21:46] <rgchatterbox> right
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> if someone dies a "natural death" then is that harm?
[21:46] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i believe that halachah supports me on this
[21:46] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> it is unavoidable harm
[21:46] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> caused by god
[21:46] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> yup
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> no, there is nothing wrong with death
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> its a part of life
[21:47] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> G-d has the right to do anything.
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> yes he does
[21:47] <hagalilgrl> i agree wit chatterbox
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> w. life there comes death
[21:47] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> so he has the right to keep ou in pain?
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> thnx
[21:47] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> but god dictates when life starts and when it ends
[21:47] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> yes
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> right
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[21:47] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> anyeone ever read a day with morrie or w/e it was called?
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> i've heard about it
[21:47] <Hoochie> so, michael ferman, what do u think?
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> my mom read it
[21:47] <hagalilgrl> no
[21:47] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> look... we don't know when we will die
[21:47] <rgchatterbox> no
[21:47] <Hava_ECRUSY> Tuesday with Morrie
[21:47] <Hoochie> i read it
[21:47] <Hoochie> its sucha good book
[21:47] <Hoochie> everyone should read it
[21:47] <Garsh> and we shouldn't choose when we should die either
[21:47] <Hoochie> i almsot cried
[21:48] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> it was a wonderful book about a man who was dying...but he wasnt in pain...thats different than if he was in pain EVERYDAY...thats just horrible
[21:48] <Hoochie> i didnt but almost
[21:48] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> has anybody here ever read 'The Giver'
[21:48] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> obviously, most of us will live "3 score and 10, 4 score if lucky" - some psalm
[21:48] <rgchatterbox> i agree wit garsh
[21:48] <rgchatterbox> its not human
[21:48] <rgchatterbox> yet ppl chose all the time
[21:48] <Garsh> thanx rg
[21:48] <Hava_ECRUSY> I've read the Giver
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> what about if someone was on an iron lung or something?
[21:48] <hagalilgrl> i think god decides on a natural death but doesnt change what will happen throughout your life
[21:48] <rgchatterbox> who says we should chose who lives?
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> would you take them off it?
[21:48] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> the giver was a rgeat book
[21:48] <rgchatterbox> y have doctors?
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[21:48] <Hoochie> so, michael ferman, what do u think?
[21:48] <Garsh> they shouldn't...nothing should ever be beyond repair
[21:48] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> but I might, for example, Die right now, when lightning strikes my house and electricity lights my house on fire, killing me
[21:48] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> in the giver, euthenasia is used ALL THE TIME
[21:48] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> but this is an extreme example
[21:48] <Michael_Ferman> Hoochie? who are you?
[21:48] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> yep...i mean you get sick, you go to the dr. he gives you medicine...maybe it wasnt g-ds will to give you medicine..why go to the dr.?
[21:49] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> it is used as punnishment, to make sure that society is perfect
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> well if say you had to have an operation where your lungs were taken out
[21:49] <hagalilgrl> thats a good point
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> and you had to be put on a breathing machine
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[21:49] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Pain is a test... anyone ever read the book of Job? Why quit in the middle of a test? All we do is miss what reward might come after...
[21:49] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> because, g-d tells us to live as long as possible
[21:49] <rgchatterbox> no such thing as perfect
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[21:49] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> in fact, originally, Adam was to live 1000 years, if he hadn't given years to David
[21:49] <rgchatterbox> we r human, humans cant b perfect
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> well let me tell you a story
[21:50] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> that society definitely wasn't, but they thought it was in the book
[21:50] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> in the giver, he sees that what he is doing is wrong, he leaves
[21:50] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> story time!
[21:50] <rgchatterbox> right
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> my grandfather is not doing so well
[21:50] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> and dies
[21:50] <Hava_ECRUSY> What about cancer patients whoa re given the choice to have chemo that could possibly lengthen their lives, but make them very sick or to not have the chemo and just live out the rest of their short lives peacefully. Is it wrong for them to choose the latter?
[21:50] <rgchatterbox> i love u stu
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[21:50] <emily> hi everyone
[21:50] <hagalilgrl> hi
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> well chemo is one example of treatment/operation
[21:51] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but he leaves because of gabriel...not because of himself
[21:51] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> he CARES about gabe
[21:51] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> I know many ppl with Cancer, who had Kimo and are LIVING!! They came out of it they are fine!! They went through the test and got the reward... life with their family and friends!
[21:51] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> he cant let them kill him cuz hes weak
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[21:51] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i believe I quoted the Hippocratic Oath
[21:51] <hagalilgrl> i believe that people should do wut they can to stay alive
[21:51] <hagalilgrl> you only get one life to live
[21:51] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html
[21:51] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> exactly
[21:51] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> that will answer a lot of the points presented in the last few minutes
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> well, what is a "good life"
[21:51] <Hoochie> who is gabe?
[21:51] <hurricane> and you should make the most of it
[21:51] <rgchatterbox> i agree w. hagalil
[21:52] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> read the book
[21:52] <hagalilgrl> thanx
[21:52] <rgchatterbox> a good life is a happy life
[21:52] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> gabe is the little boy in "the giver" who is going to be killed because he is too weak to live in his perfect society
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> is living on a respirator and/or in extreme pain "making the most of life"?
[21:52] <hagalilgrl> no
[21:52] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> no
[21:52] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> no, it's cause he cries a lot
[21:52] <rgchatterbox> no
[21:52] <hagalilgrl> but geting chemo could be
[21:52] <rgchatterbox> but life is life
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> if they are not living a good life
[21:52] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> oo ur right..ok
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> then what is the point of living
[21:52] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> haveta go to the restroom, hold on
[21:52] <Garsh> have fun!
[21:52] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but in a perfect society, wed all be healthy..we dont live in a perfect society
[21:52] <rgchatterbox> a good life, every1 definds that differently
[21:53] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> they think that there is something wrong with him crying, because he is already a year old
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> well if one is in a vegetative state, is that a good life? can't talk, cant eat, cant' see
[21:53] <Hava_ECRUSY> that's exactly the choice my zadie was given a few months before he died. He chose not to get the chemo, and although he only had a few months left to live he made the most of them, instead of ending his life sick and alone in the hospital.
[21:53] <rgchatterbox> no such thing as perfect
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> that's what my grandfather was like before he died last year
[21:53] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> life is life, kimo, cancer, depression included, life is living not killing yourself. We are to choose life.
[21:53] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> a vegetative state is still life
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[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> but if they can't communicate with the rest of the world, it is like being isolated from the whole world
[21:54] <Hoochie> is it a life you'd want to live?
[21:54] <Hava_ECRUSY> but is choosing not to be treated killing yourself?
[21:54] <Garsh> on the other hand, my grandfather had the radiation treatment when ha had cancer and now he's absolutely FINE
[21:54] <hagalilgrl> if you kill yourself, u are hurting ur entire family, people should think about that
[21:54] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> supose that one month after the person is taken out of the vegetative state, i.e. death, a cure is found
[21:54] <rgchatterbox> ima go now, this was really interesting
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> well what hurts your family more -- seeing you in pain, or not having you there to be seen in pain?
[21:54] <Hava_ECRUSY> yeah but that isn't always the case Tania
[21:54] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> exactly haga.
[21:54] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but would the family want him to be in pain like that?!
[21:54] <hagalilgrl> no
[21:54] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> I WOULD NEVER want to see any member of my family in pain like that! it hurts me to think about it!
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[21:54] <hagalilgrl> yea but would u want them to die
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> if they were in less pain...
[21:55] <hagalilgrl> im not sayin this is an easy concept
[21:55] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> id prefer that
[21:55] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> honestly
[21:55] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> than for myself to see them in pain every day like that
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[21:55] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> but what would they prefer?
[21:55] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> whatever they prefer i would resepect
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> if they can tell you, then that's a good thing
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> but what if they can't talk, or something like that?
[21:55] <hurricane> peoples wills?
[21:55] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> then how can you be sure that they don't want to keep living?
[21:55] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> i'm back
[21:55] <Garsh> have fun?
[21:55] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> Pain is part of life.. of course it hurts... but we cannot exspect life to be pain free... if it was then we would be in a perfect sociaty.
[21:56] <Jason_Lustig> pain is a part of life
[21:56] <hagalilgrl> yea
[21:56] <Jason_Lustig> but what about constant pain leading up to an inevitable death?
[21:56] <hagalilgrl> u cant escape it
[21:56] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> my great aunt became very sick...she forgot everyone, lost her memory was in and out of hospitals...we let her live, because we didnt feel she was in pain or severe discomfort
[21:56] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> my great-grandfather was in a lot of pain before he died about six years ago, and I saw him about a week before his death; it hurt, but not as much as hearing that he was dead
[21:56] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> death is also a part of life (sort of)
[21:56] <Hava_ECRUSY> that's what i was going to say Jason...
[21:56] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> life is a terminal disease
[21:56] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> no..it would hurt me more to see them in pain
[21:56] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i think it would
[21:56] <Hava_ECRUSY> how much pain is too much?
[21:57] <hagalilgrl> but also, my grandfather was in a nurding home for many years, although it hurt to see him die, i knew he wasnt in pain anymore, that made me feel better about it
[21:57] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> no amount of pain is too much, because as long as you are still living, what is pain?
[21:57] <Hoochie> if u are dead what is pain?
[21:57] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i am saying that it DID hurt more to hear that he was dead
[21:57] <Hoochie> sometimes its less painful
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[21:57] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> several of my teenage friends feel that the pain is too much. Would you let them bring about their end?
[21:57] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> what is pain
[21:57] <Hoochie> not like i know but just saying
[21:57] <hagalilgrl> yea
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> sometimes it is comforting to know that they aren't in pain
[21:57] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> and to know that i would never see him again
[21:57] <Garsh> go Stu
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[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> there is pain, and chronic pain
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> pain is just the pain of living
[21:58] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> there is pain! how can you say if ur living there is no pain!
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> chronic pain is pain as you walk along to your deathbed
[21:58] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> that was not much of a comfort
[21:58] <Sir_Swusalot_Nathan_TeamB> life is a blessing... no matter how much pain there is, life is still a blessing, and is better than death
[21:58] <hagalilgrl> yea!
[21:58] <melissa> how can you say life is better than death if you don't know what happens after death?
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> life is a blessing along with pain because you can also experience at the same time the joys of life
[21:59] <hagalilgrl> true
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[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> but if you can't experience those things -- say you can't hear or can't see or whatnot -- then you can't experience those
[21:59] <hagalilgrl> im out
[21:59] <hagalilgrl> nice talkin to yall
[21:59] <Hoochie> did anyone see the episode of the dinosaurs show where the dad dies
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[21:59] <Hoochie> and like he sees what its like to die
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[21:59] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> pain is a necessary part of life
[22:00] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> it makes the moments without it more significant
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> pain is part of life
[22:00] <Hoochie> doesnt need to be
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> just like joy and love and beautiy is
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> but if all you have is pain
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> then what is the point of life? to experience pain?
[22:00] <Hoochie> what if the pain is so great the pain and beauty isnt worth it
[22:00] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> I have cronic migranes..... were it feels like your head is about to exsplode... litterally. I have major jaw problems, like TMJ. BUT I LIVE WITH IT!! I have though about suiside but I have never done it... and I live with constent pain, believe me. I want to die some days. But I love my family, friends, G-d and life, so I don't. I am a living example.. don;'t tell me that the pain is too much. ya right!
[22:00] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> if there was no sadness, than there could be no joy
[22:00] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but theres a difference bwtwen pain you shoudl go through like stubbing ur toe and pain like cant move finger pain
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[22:01] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i have a VERY low tolerance for pain
[22:01] <Hoochie> how about pain of like you know you r gonna die in a few months pain
[22:01] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but even those with high tolerance
[22:01] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> thats a different kinda pain
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> i think we're getting away from the real issue at hand
[22:01] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> When I have my sever migranes I cannot move... or I almost pass out. I know what it is like. And I LIVE with it.
[22:01] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i wouldnt wanna just get it over with if i was only in emotional im gonna die soon pain
[22:01] <Hava_ECRUSY> but it's just as real
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[22:01] <Garsh> advil is wonderful
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> is euthanasia dangerous enough that people would take advantage of other people with it?
[22:01] <Justin_Hagalil> hey all
[22:01] <Hoochie> amen
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[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> like, doctors killing patients because they can't afford treatment
[22:01] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> but even if the pain was so great that I couldn't move or speak, i would not wish to die. that is blasphemy
[22:02] <Garsh> amen Jason
[22:02] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> euthenasia is blaphemy
[22:02] <Hava_ECRUSY> killing patients, or letting them die?
[22:02] <Stu_Glaser_EPA> Yair: have you ever been in such a position before?
[22:02] <Garsh> anglais s'il vous plait?
[22:02] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> it is usurping a power that should be god's alone
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> are you SURE you wouldn't want to die? have you ever experienced that kind of pain before?
[22:02] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> no i haven't
[22:02] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> i disagree though
[22:02] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> I am amune to advil, tylonol and other things like that, they do not work anymore. And this is going to stay with me for all my life, but I'm going to live with it, not take the easy way out.
[22:02] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i'm sorry
[22:02] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i misspoke
[22:02] <Hoochie> i am amune to caffine
[22:03] <Justin_Hagalil> what if ur in a coma?
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> that sucks, hoochie
[22:03] <Garsh> so am I hoochie!
[22:03] <Yair_Goldberg_from_Hanegev> i meant to say that i wouldn't kill myself
[22:03] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> neither would i
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> would you let someone else hold care back from you?
[22:03] <Robyn_Metny_TeamA> but i dunno...it makes me think if im in soo much pain
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> would you allow your family to put a DO Not Resucitate order on you?
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[22:03] <Justin_Hagalil> if ur in a coma, should doctor keep givin u meds?
[22:03] <Garsh> yup
[22:04] <Lady_Pinwheel_Avi_TeamB> yes
[22:04] <Justin_Hagalil> y?
[22:04] <Hoochie> what if u are never gonna get out of the comma
[22:04] <melissa> what if you are
[22:04] <Garsh> then you'll die eventually, butg there's always a chance of resuccitation
[22:04] <Justi