Chat Archive: 9/18/2002

This chat was run on September 18, 2002 from 9 PM EST to 11 PM EST. The topic was: What has happened over the past year... and how the world is different now.

Session Start: Wed Sep 18 20:14:28 2002
Session Ident: #chatusy
[20:14] *** Now talking in #chatusy
[20:14] *** Topic is 'What has happened over the past year... and how the world is different now.'
[20:14] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Jason_Lustig
[20:46] *** AtownCommun has joined #chatusy
[20:46] <AtownCommun> hey
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> who is this?
[20:47] <AtownCommun> Jordan Stutz, EPAer
[20:47] <AtownCommun> Are we expecting more people to attend?
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> yeah, we're expecting a lot more people, hopefully
[20:48] <AtownCommun> ok, then i sahall return
[20:48] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> Hey Jordan!
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> but the chat doesn't start for about 10 or 15 minutes yet...
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> but hang around!
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> :)
[20:48] <AtownCommun> (I'll stil be ehre but away from ccomp)
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> ah
[20:48] <AtownCommun> Michel, do u know me?
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> you might want to change your name, btw, to something that has your real name and region in it
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> so that people will know who it is
[20:48] <AtownCommun> ok, thanks, how do i do that?
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> there's a box
[20:48] <Jason_Lustig> with your name in it
[20:49] <Jason_Lustig> so just type your new name in it, it just can't have any spaces in it
[20:49] *** AtownCommun is now known as Jordan_StutzEPAComm
[20:49] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> no... just saying hello...
[20:49] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> there we go
[20:49] <Jason_Lustig> yup, looks good :-D
[20:49] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> ok, ill be back then
[20:49] <Jason_Lustig> ok see ya soon
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[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:55] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> xeon definately jsut left, lol
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[20:56] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey
[20:56] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> who r u?
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[20:57] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey USYers
[20:57] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> names please
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[20:58] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey sm
[20:58] <smnovick> hey
[20:58] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> whats ur name and wehre u from?
[20:58] <smnovick> Steven Novick from Seaboard
[20:59] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> were u at encmapment?
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[20:59] <smnovick> yeah
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> hi guys!
[20:59] <Hannah> hi who is everyone...
[20:59] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> Im jrodan stutz from EPA, who r u?
[21:00] <Hannah> oh so this is like awhole usy thing? not just one region?
[21:00] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> yeah, what reginon r u?
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[21:00] <Hannah> hagalil u?
[21:00] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:00] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey schmuel
[21:00] <Jason_Lustig> i'm from the great region of Tzafon!
[21:00] <Hannah> epa
[21:00] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> EPa, were u at encampment?
[21:00] <Hannah> dumb question
[21:00] <shmuel> hey
[21:00] <shmuel> I'm from Chusy
[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> oh cool
[21:01] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> nvm, hagalil wasnt at our encampment, sorry
[21:01] <Hannah> i used to like in chicago
[21:01] <shmuel> where?
[21:01] <Hannah> on the border of chicago and oak park
[21:01] <Hannah> i miss it
[21:02] <Hannah> even tho i moved when i was like 7
[21:02] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> smnovick, u still with us?
[21:02] <shmuel> cool, I'm on the north side of chicago
[21:02] <shmuel> where do you live now?
[21:02] <Hannah> jersey
[21:02] <shmuel> cool, I met a couple USY people from there this summer
[21:02] <Hannah> cool
[21:02] <shmuel> yup
[21:03] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> ne of u heard of Camp PinemerE?
[21:03] <Jason_Lustig> wher's that?
[21:03] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> Poconos
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> cool
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[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> hi Adam!
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[21:04] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey adam, where u from?
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> hi hirsch!
[21:04] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey pubs, wehre u from and whats ur name?
[21:04] <Pubs_Coordinator> hi
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[21:04] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> CANADA ROCKS
[21:05] <Jason_Lustig> canada is cool
[21:05] <Adam> guess where i'm from jason
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[21:05] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> Silent, whats up?
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[21:05] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> good, people are coming
[21:05] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> I second that comment regarding Canada
[21:05] <Hannah> yep
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[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> so, before we begin
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> we have a single request
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> on the count of THREE
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> you all send IMs to three people inviting them to come to the chat
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> one...
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> two...
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> THREE!
[21:06] * Jason_Lustig sends three IMs
[21:07] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> i sent out
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[21:07] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey adam, lyssa, and jamie, whats ur names and werhe u from?\
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[21:08] <Adam_Zarek> adam and ecrusy
[21:08] <lyssa86> alyssa from seaboard
[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> Canada rocks
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> hi guys
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[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> Alyssa, were u at encmapmener?
[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> encampment
[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> *
[21:08] *** isle is now known as ben
[21:08] <lyssa86> no... i had to start school the same week :(
[21:08] <JamieB> this is Jamie from seaboard
[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> jamie, were u at encampment?
[21:08] <JamieB> yeah
[21:08] *** ben is now known as isle
[21:08] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> what bunk?
[21:09] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> were u in or at the talent show?
[21:09] <JamieB> i wanna say 26, you are form EPA?
[21:09] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> I am
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[21:09] <JamieB> i was with Ariella and Judy
[21:09] <JamieB> i mean just Ariella
[21:09] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> hey alex and max, what regions?
[21:09] <Alex> EMTZA
[21:09] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> gothca, were u in the talent show?
[21:10] <JamieB> no
[21:10] *** Cliel-ECRUSYComm has quit IRC (Quit: Today is a good day to chat.)
[21:10] <JamieB> where u at encampment
[21:10] <max> epa jordan, u should know
[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> did u see the carmen sandiego act?
[21:10] <JamieB> yeah
[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> max who?
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[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> i was the lead in that one
[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> so hi everyone
[21:10] <max> orenstein from bethlehem
[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> why doesn't everyone go and introduce themselves?
[21:10] <JamieB> ohhhhhhhh, i see
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[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> say your name, region, and grade
[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> oh, nvm, ornstein?
[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> gotcha
[21:10] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> ur like..."who is that?"
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[21:11] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> ?Jordan Stutz, EPA, 12
[21:11] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> jay needle?
[21:11] <Shari> Shari, METNY, 12
[21:11] <JamieB> ok, my anme is Jamie Brauner, I am from Seaboard and in grade 12
[21:11] <shmuel> Sam Buchbinder, Chusy, 11th
[21:11] <lyssa86> alyssa zaleon, seaboard, 11th
[21:11] <Hannah> hannah (obviously) hagalil 11th
[21:11] <max> Max Orenstein, EPA, 11
[21:11] <Adam_Zarek> adam zark, ecrusy, 10
[21:11] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> go EPA
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> jason lustig, tzafon!, 12
[21:11] <JamieB> hey sam, do you know Jamie Chiel
[21:11] <smnovick> steven novick, seaboard, 10
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[21:11] <shmuel> nope sorry
[21:12] <JamieB> oh, ok never mind
[21:12] <shmuel> where does she live in chicago?
[21:12] <JamieB> i am not sure
[21:12] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> Michael A. Ferman, ECRUSY, 1st year
[21:12] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> any of u going to attend INT'L?
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[21:12] <JamieB> i am!
[21:12] <lyssa86> i am !
[21:12] *** Jay has joined #chatusy
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> hey jmo!
[21:12] <shmuel> me2!
[21:12] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> as moses enters the room
[21:12] <jeremymoses> hello
[21:12] <Hannah> i cant this year :( im mad
[21:12] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> I am too
[21:12] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> hey!
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> ok so let's get started
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[21:12] <shmuel> ben balter?
[21:12] <JamieB> did any of you go on summer trips this summer
[21:13] <Ben_from_CHUSY> I went on wheels
[21:13] <shmuel> I was on summer in the city
[21:13] <smnovick> I went on wheels
[21:13] <shmuel> it was amazing
[21:13] <smnovick> BUSA!
[21:13] <JamieB> shmuel, you know Abby Goldstein
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[21:13] <shmuel> of course!
[21:13] <JamieB> i went of European experience
[21:13] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: +m
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> hi everyone
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> welcome to the chat!
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[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> we will be having a very interesting discussion tonight
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> so let's start...
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> Do you guys think that things have improved a lot (in terms of security, etc) since last year?
[21:14] *** Jason_Lustig sets mode: -m
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> (you guys can talk now :D )
[21:14] <Ben_from_CHUSY> OH!
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[21:15] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> go EPA!!!!!!!!!
[21:15] <Jordan_StutzEPAComm> who are u? Adena?
[21:15] <smnovick> on wheels we definately saw haw different parts of the country act differently
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[21:15] <JamieB> what do you mean, as a nation in regards to 9/11
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[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> like, do you think things have improved?
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> I think taht security hasn't improved too much, unfortunately.
[21:15] <lyssa86> i guess that they have improved somewhat. but definately not enough has been done
[21:15] <smnovick> On the east and west coast there was a lot of secuirty but in the middle of the US there wasn't very much at all
[21:16] <shmuel> I think that it might not have improved enought, but things have been done. I was in new york all summer and felt just as safe as I would anywhere else
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> well there used to be at least some security at all, but now at airports it seems that all the security has gone away.
[21:16] <JamieB> comming into the US from Madrid this summer, there was very little security
[21:16] <smnovick> Sure look at the LAX shooting and that tells you how dimle our security is
[21:16] <Adam_Zarek> speaking for canadian security, you dont notice much more at airports about security
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> so then what's the problem with our security?
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[21:16] <JamieB> even at customs in NY it took us 15 min for oour entire group to get through
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[21:16] <JamieB> not long at all
[21:16] <smnovick> its a money issue
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[21:17] <smnovick> there isn't enough funding to get enough security
[21:17] <smnovick> plain and simple
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[21:17] <shmuel> I somewhat agree, in that the airplane companies can't make money if they increase security
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[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> i went to nyc a couple weeks ago, and there wasn't a guy to check the car when you went to park in the lot, and they didn't even ask me the questions like "do you have anything in your bags that others gave to you?"
[21:17] <Harry> hey y'all!
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[21:18] <smnovick> thats the reason that all the airports aren't going to meat the security deadline for screening all bagae. It's because they don' t have the funding to do it. And the american public wants more security and cheaper flights and taxes, but it doesn't work both ways
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[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> unfortuantely, that seems to be the way it is
[21:18] <Iggers13> hey, is there anyone from pinwheel in here other than me?
[21:18] <shmuel> when I was coming back from newark they were good about security, by accident I said yes to one of those "has anyone had your bag
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[21:18] <Harry> Hey Jay!
[21:18] <shmuel> questions, and they checked all my bags immidiatly
[21:19] <shmuel> even after I corrected myself
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> but
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[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> with the war in afghanistan and all that, has the public opinion about security gotten better?
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, it seems that people are asking for security handed on a platter
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[21:20] <Jason_Lustig> what doyou guys think?
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[21:21] <Justin_Hagalil> hey all
[21:21] *** Iggers13 is now known as DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel
[21:21] <DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel> hey justin
[21:21] <Justin_Hagalil> hey debbie whats up
[21:21] <Justin_Hagalil> the chat doesnt seem active
[21:22] <DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel> I was hoping one of my friends on nativ would be on..
[21:22] <Harry> Let's live'in it!
[21:22] <Justin_Hagalil> i heard they arent coming until later
[21:22] <DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel> really? bummer.
[21:22] <Justin_Hagalil> yeah
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:22] <Justin_Hagalil> hey harry
[21:22] <Jay> I think that we can help keep the continent secure by being more aware
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> they're having a little trouble getting in
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[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> well, i agree
[21:23] <DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel> i had trouble getting in too
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[21:23] <Jay> For instance, in israel, many suicide bombers were stopped by watching for everything
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> we need to be aware -- that's what they are like in israel, always aware
[21:23] <Harry> Hey Justin!
[21:23] <Harry> Jay, I agree with you
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[21:24] <Justin_Hagalil> especially after FL's incident
[21:24] <DebbieWeiser-Pinwheel> what happened in FL?
[21:24] <Adam_Zarek> but in israel there used to be daily attacks and people and eventhough this sounds bad, they recognized from experience what to look for
[21:24] <Max> which accident in FL
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[21:24] <Justin_Hagalil> incident (actually fake)
[21:24] <Harry> what do ppl think about owning gas masks? do you think it is necessary? have we come to this?
[21:24] <Justin_Hagalil> or was it georfia?
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[21:24] <Jason_Lustig> Gas masks?
[21:24] <Jason_Lustig> i don't know if we need gas masks...
[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, we aren't even at war with iraq yet
[21:25] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Israel's the only country in the world that gives out gas masks to all of its citizens
[21:25] <Justin_Hagalil> somebody down south mentioned trouble for 9/13 but were caught
[21:25] <shmuel> I agree that we don't need them
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[21:25] <Justin_Hagalil> gas masks arent necessary here
[21:25] <Debbie-Pinwheel> oh... the three Yemenese guys
[21:25] <Justin_Hagalil> yeah
[21:25] <Harry> seriously...
[21:26] <Harry> anything think each home should have a gas mask?
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> One gas mask wouldn't do much good for a whole family..
[21:26] <Alex> Chemical/Biological Warfare is impractical
[21:26] <Justin_Hagalil> jason's right
[21:26] <Debbie-Pinwheel> maybe if stuff escalates with Iraq, it might not be a bad idea to have them in each home
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> it would be better to have stuff like the old fallout shelters
[21:27] <Justin_Hagalil> are those really safe?
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> well, i don't mean to use the old ones but maybe build new ones with the purpose of protecting us from chemical weapons
[21:27] <Jac> well isn't it true in israel one room has to be bomb proof or something like that? would it be beneficial to have that if stuff escalates with iraq?
[21:27] <Adam_Zarek> i think that if ppl start stockpiling gasd masks then eventually paranoia will set in
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[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> can iraq hit us with weapons, even?
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[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> if we attack iraq, they'll attack Israel, not us :(
[21:27] <Justin_Hagalil> if iraq found out about the gas masks, they'll find a way around them
[21:28] <Max> hi, epamoocow
[21:28] <Debbie-Pinwheel> i think most homes that are built in israel have to have at least one bomb-shelterish room
[21:28] <EPAMooCow> hey
[21:28] <Harry> SO, what should Americans (and our Canadians friends) do to protect ourselves? on an individual/family level?
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[21:28] <Jason_Lustig> hi rebecca!
[21:28] <Debbie-Pinwheel> i dnt know if there is anything we can do
[21:28] <shmuel> Hi Rebecca!!
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> we can be aware
[21:29] <Debbie-Pinwheel> other than that. :)
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[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> that's the big thing, and I don't think that even a year after 9/11 a lot of americans have gotten that
[21:29] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Robin!
[21:29] <Justin_Hagalil> at this point, we really cant do more than be aware
[21:29] <Jac> yeh
[21:29] <Alex> chemical and biological weapons don't work in a military setting because they are far too unreliable. A small shift in wind patterns renders them useless.
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> has the 9/11 attacks made you more aware?
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[21:29] <Debbie-Pinwheel> yeah, it has for me
[21:29] <Justin_Hagalil> until bush makes a decision on our next move, we dont know what will happen
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, being a year later, do you go around watching more and being more aware of your surroundings?
[21:29] <Alex> aware of what?
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[21:30] <Max> being aware of possible terrorists
[21:30] <Harry> CANADIANS: are you afraid of being attacked?
[21:30] <Justin_Hagalil> people are paranoid about a low flying plane even when they live near an airport
[21:30] <PinwheelSATO-VP> it's made me more aware, but mostly aware that our government makes mistakes
[21:30] <Justin_Hagalil> helocopters get people very paranoid
[21:30] <PinwheelSATO-VP> that it doesn't always protect us the way we'd like to believe it does
[21:30] <Jason_Lustig> helicopters?
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[21:31] <Justin_Hagalil> yeah
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> but i think that sometimes we need to protect ourselves, and people don't think like that... they want the government to protect them...
[21:31] <Adam_Zarek> in canada, i have never had the fear of being attacked
[21:31] <Alex> the next attack will most likely hit a water or food supply.
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> if there is a next attack
[21:31] <PinwheelSATO-VP> definitly, they wanted the government to protect them during pearl harbor too
[21:31] <jeremymoses> did u see concordia adam????
[21:31] <jeremymoses> that was close to an attack
[21:32] <jeremymoses> i didnt feel really safe there
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[21:32] <Adam_Zarek> i saw it on the news
[21:32] <Harry> Adam, do you think there is the possibility due to Can's close relationship to the US?
[21:32] <jeremymoses> canada isnt as safe as u think
[21:32] <Justin_Hagalil> jason's right, do we know that there will be another attack?
[21:32] <Adam_Zarek> it wasnt an attack per se. it was a riot and that cant be compared to a terrorist attack
[21:32] <Adam_Zarek> that is the only thing that concerns me as a canadian
[21:33] <Justin_Hagalil> u have a right to be concerned, but that just means that this is becoming more and more a world affair
[21:33] <jeremymoses> i know but im saying that a type of hatred was publicly shown and it has been proven that there have been terrorists who have taken safe haven in canada in the past
[21:33] <Adam_Zarek> canada is however known as a "safe haven" for terrorists and not to offend jmo, a lot has been said about montreal as a base of attack
[21:33] <PinwheelSATO-VP> oh its definitly a world affair
[21:33] <jeremymoses> exactly
[21:33] <Debbie-Pinwheel> hey Robin
[21:33] <PinwheelSATO-VP> when bush said "you're either with us or against us" he made it a world affair
[21:33] <PinwheelSATO-VP> hey debbie
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[21:34] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> i don't know
[21:34] <PinwheelSATO-VP> how do you guys feel about this "axis of evil"
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> i think evil is a very, very strong word.
[21:34] <Adam_Zarek> i think that was pushing it over the edge
[21:34] <Alex> North Korea is really cleaning up
[21:34] <PinwheelSATO-VP> it made it sound a little Austin Powers-esque
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:35] <jeremymoses> i know as a canadian when i saw the attack, i didnt think attack on US i thought that it was an attack on the west, it was a world issue before
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[21:35] <Harry> FEELINGS: any feelings about profiling? firstly, sex? should men be targeted over women? secondly, should middle eastern men be targeted over others?
[21:35] <Alex> where?
[21:35] <Debbie-Pinwheel> I agree with robin. a lot of countries aren't being quick to say whether or not they're on the US's side because they don't want to be hte first.
[21:35] <Harry> at America's borders
[21:35] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Britain seems to be on our side...
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> britain is on our side a LOT
[21:35] <Harry> sea, airports, land crossings
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[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> well, it seems that bush wants to go because they don't want to be hte first.
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> <Harry> at America's borders
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> <Debbie-Pinwheel> Britain seems to be on our side...
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> oops
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> sorry
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> hi emily!!
[21:36] <jaclyn_calif> the only reason why women arent targeted over men is because men did the other terrorist attacks (that we know of)
[21:36] <PinwheelSATO-VP> profiling is going to happen for as long as the people continuously commiting these crimes are middle eastern men
[21:36] <Harry> and what about middle eastern men?
[21:36] <emily_on_NATIV> Hey guys! Hi Jason
[21:36] <PinwheelSATO-VP> when it begins to change, the profiling will change
[21:36] <Debbie-Pinwheel> hey emily!
[21:36] <Harry> Hey Em!
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[21:36] <Adam_Zarek> but israel did the same thing and then women started to commit attacks and then u have a problem
[21:36] <Debbie-Pinwheel> how's nativ going?
[21:37] <emily_on_NATIV> it's phenomenal!!!
[21:37] <Justin_Hagalil> if the other countries stay quiet, they will be safe, at least thats what they think
[21:37] <Debbie-Pinwheel> great!
[21:37] <PinwheelSATO-VP> that's true
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[21:37] <emily_on_NATIV> it's also 4:30am
[21:37] <Debbie-Pinwheel> :) nice
[21:37] <Magnolia> Emily rocks my world!
[21:37] <Debbie-Pinwheel> I have a friend who's there wtih you...
[21:37] <emily_on_NATIV> awesome
[21:37] <Justin_Hagalil> the US tries to be the world police so its not surprising that the world is leaving it to us
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> well
[21:37] <Debbie-Pinwheel> David Furman from Seattle.
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> we can't do it alone
[21:38] <Debbie-Pinwheel> good point justin
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[21:38] <emily_on_NATIV> are we talking about the war on terrorism?
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[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> kinda
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, what bush wants the othre countries to do is to flush out the terrorists from their own countries so that they have nowhere to go
[21:38] <Debbie-Pinwheel> here's the topic: What has happened over the past year... and how the world is different now.
[21:38] <PinwheelSATO-VP> we're obviously not doing it alone because we have British support and other allied efforts
[21:38] <jaclyn_calif> in my gov't class students were saying that people were gonna wait to see Russia's decision to decide what they are for
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[21:38] <ElPresidente> jason the world is leaving it to the US because our foreign policy is not to go about things the way the US has....
[21:38] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Putin's definitley got a lot of power
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[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> it's not just power but LAND
[21:38] <Adam-ECRUSY> who is el presidente
[21:39] <PinwheelSATO-VP> we've also had a lot of support from countries around afganistan
[21:39] <Debbie-Pinwheel> heh that too
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> if a country isn't actively looking for terrorists, then there could be a lot of them hiding in that country
[21:39] <ElPresidente> the US believes it's on a divine mission to eradicate all evil and terror in the name of the world
[21:39] <Harry> Adam, I would like to know the same thing...
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> also, there are al-quaida people in the US...
[21:39] <Adam-ECRUSY> abot what
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> a terrorsist cell was just caught right near where i live
[21:39] <Debbie-Pinwheel> they've been investigating this guy in seattle
[21:39] <emily_on_NATIV> what role do you think the US should be playing, if not a more active one?
[21:40] <jaclyn_calif> bye, keep up the good conversation!
[21:40] <PinwheelSATO-VP> yeah strangly, my city of portland just caught a guy on 9/11 this year trying to flee to the united arab emirates
[21:40] <Harry> who is "ElPresidente"?
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> well, now the gov't has all sorts of new powers with the Patriot act
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[21:41] <Debbie-Pinwheel> i've heard mixed things about that.
[21:41] <Justin_Hagalil> the US is trying itd best, but i honestly feel that the govnt is nervous to be hurt again
[21:41] <Debbie-Pinwheel> what all does it entail?
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[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> do you guys think the government needs lots more power in order to keep track of terrorists?
[21:41] <Adam-ECRUSY> a canadian family from toronto has been accused of fighting in afganistan for al-qaeda and one kid has been arrested by the US
[21:41] <Justin_Hagalil> we lecture, but no country is really "doing" anything
[21:41] <Harry> peace out!
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[21:42] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> gotta run... everyone take care... nice chatting
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[21:42] <PinwheelSATO-VP> see you later guys, stay safe
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[21:42] <Michael_Ferman-ECRUSY> bye all!
[21:42] <Debbie-Pinwheel> bye guys
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[21:42] <ElPresidente> lata fermdawg
[21:42] <emily_on_NATIV> sorry the internet connection over here is terrible
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> so emily
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> what do people in Israel say about what the US is/has been doing?
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[21:42] <emily_on_NATIV> take it easy michael
[21:43] <emily_on_NATIV> it really depends who you ask
[21:43] <Justin_Hagalil> what do u mean?
[21:43] <emily_on_NATIV> most israelis seem happy with america's support
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[21:44] <ElPresidente> but whats it going to end up costing israelis?
[21:44] <Justin_Hagalil> thats food
[21:44] <Justin_Hagalil> *good
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> costing israelis?
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[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> well, i wonder if they're happy with america's support but what about what America could do to Iraq, and then what Iraq might do to israel?
[21:45] <emily_on_NATIV> a lot of israelis seem to feel like we're in a war that cant necessarily be "won"
[21:45] <ElPresidente> for example, if the US goes through with waging war against Iraq, what's it going to mean for Israelis.... what will the implications be since the US supports Israel and viceversa
[21:45] <Justin_Hagalil> so what do they think should be done
[21:45] <emily_on_NATIV> what do you all think will happen when america attacks iraq?
[21:46] <Debbie-Pinwheel> i'm worried about what all of the arab countries will do to israel
[21:46] <RebCurlz> we'll end up in WW3
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> well, i don't think the US can take out all of Iraq's weapons at once
[21:46] <miami> bush is making the same mistake his father made by going into iraq
[21:46] <RebCurlz> exactly
[21:46] <Debbie-Pinwheel> stupid bushes.
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> if we attack them then Iraq will attack Israel, most probably :(
[21:46] <Adam-ECRUSY> r u saying that he shouldnt do anyhingto iraq
[21:46] <miami> ok so he kicks out saddam, then what?
[21:46] <RebCurlz> i'm saying we should get the world on israel's side then go for iraq
[21:46] <miami> who's gonna be in charge?
[21:47] <miami> wont happen, the world is anti-israel
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[21:47] <RebCurlz> that's the problem rightthere
[21:47] <ElPresidente> we should be asking if there is an effective, alternative solution to the problem of iraq.... we know they have weapons of mass destruction, and saddam is a loon, so if the Us doesnt wage war, what else can be done
[21:47] <miami> iraq and the arab world has too much oil
[21:47] <Justin_Hagalil> we have to plan it so that we can attack iraq and help protect israel, but that is very difficult, and probably near impossible
[21:48] <smnovick> interesting but gtg thanks everyone
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[21:48] <RebCurlz> yeah
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[21:48] <Justin_Hagalil> havent we already tried reasoning?
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> i don't think it would be too hard
[21:48] <Justin_Hagalil> that didnt work
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> or rather, i think it'd be hard
[21:48] <Debbie-Pinwheel> im thinking if the US does do stuff against iraq, and they attack israel, that it's going to get a lot worse than it is currently in israel. becuase an entire country attacking something the size of delaware is a lot worse than a few people blowing themselves up along 15 others every once in a while.
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> but it's not IMPOSSIBLE
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[21:48] <Adam-ECRUSY> israel is strong enough to protect herself, what she needs is the US's support with whaever israel will do
[21:48] <Justin_Hagalil> i never said impossible, just close to it
[21:48] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Hey Jesse
[21:48] <Justin_Hagalil> adam has a point
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[21:49] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Adam, I think that what you say isn't totally realistic.
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> well, is Israel strong enough to protect herself against chemical weapons?
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> smallpox? anthrax? plague?
[21:49] <RebCurlz> is anyone really?
[21:49] <Debbie-Pinwheel> Israel is a very strong country, but if it has 30 countries attacking it, there is no way she can survive
[21:49] <ElPresidente> is any country?
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[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> well, we would hope that Israel would be, but that doesn't mean that they are...
[21:50] <Adam-ECRUSY> 2 countriues attacked israel on yom kippur in 1973 and throught the same thing u r thinking, that israel is vulnerable, bu t she isnt
[21:50] <Debbie-Pinwheel> even if just neighboring countries attack israel, it will be tough..
[21:50] <Justin_Hagalil> thats why they she needs western support
[21:50] <Adam-ECRUSY> israel has repulsed any sort of invasion from neghbouring cntries
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[21:51] <RebCurlz> that's true
[21:51] <miami> y does America even have to attack iraq?...weapon of mass destruction?...come on, pakistan has weapons of mass destruction and they can have them, u know why?, its cuz america is allies with pakistan...as long as Bush is on good terms with a country they can have weapons of mass destruction, but if he so chooses, then its ok to go into a country he doesnt like and take a leader out of power because their not his allies, doesnt seem fair
[21:51] <Adam-ECRUSY> not to mention that israel now has peace treaties with 2 of her neghbours
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[21:51] <spo0ks> mad blazed
[21:51] <Gregg`Romo> hmmmm
[21:51] <Debbie-Pinwheel> 2 countries is tough to hold off, but i think that this time, it will be a chain reaction if 1 country attacks
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[21:51] <Justin_Hagalil> if peace can be made, great, but iraq doesnt seem up to cpmpromise
[21:51] <miami> y sould they compromise?
[21:52] <Debbie-Pinwheel> i dont think saddam cares about fairness, no offense
[21:52] <Justin_Hagalil> to avoid war
[21:52] <Adam-ECRUSY> lebanon has no army and israel has and if need be can repulse any syrian attack
[21:52] <Justin_Hagalil> i know he doesnt
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> well, that seems to be the way it is with terrorists, a lot
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> they only understand violence
[21:52] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[21:52] <Gregg`Romo> wrong
[21:52] <Gregg`Romo> they don't just understand violence
[21:52] <Gregg`Romo> if you give them an ultimatum
[21:52] <miami> America is the one attacking here, iraq is being forced into a corner
[21:52] <Gregg`Romo> they can be reeducated
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[21:52] <Justin_Hagalil> how?
[21:52] <Gregg`Romo> this can be present as with the case of eisenhower in the 1950s in lebanon
[21:53] <Debbie-Pinwheel> what? brainwashing?
[21:53] <Gregg`Romo> no
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[21:53] <garsh> bonjour
[21:53] <miami> america is demading they switch their power and give up thier weapons
[21:53] <Gregg`Romo> if you give them an example for instancee, quid pro quo
[21:53] <rgchatterbox> where are we at?
[21:53] <Debbie-Pinwheel> hey, new frontier person
[21:53] <newfrontierbay> hi
[21:53] <miami> and if they dont, bush is saying he'll destroy them
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> quid pro quo???
[21:53] <Gregg`Romo> Certain Al-Quaeda members committed acts against the US
[21:53] <Debbie-Pinwheel> what's your name?
[21:53] <Gregg`Romo> It's latin
[21:53] <Gregg`Romo> you give what you get
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> i see
[21:54] <newfrontierbay> Jaclyn
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> They are now in Guantanomo Bay, and Bagram
[21:54] <Debbie-Pinwheel> ok
[21:54] <spo0ks> quit
[21:54] <rgchatterbox> im lost, whats going on?
[21:54] <Justin_Hagalil> how does that apply
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> They aren't going anywhere soon
[21:54] <Justin_Hagalil> ok
[21:54] <newfrontierbay> is that ok?
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> This encourages other Al Quaeda Cells
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> ok, think about it this way
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> to not do anything
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> It's setting an example
[21:54] <Debbie-Pinwheel> well guys, this has been a blast, but i've gotta jet. Jesse, Robin, I'll see you guys in 30something days!
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[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> if, a year ago, before 9/11, Bush said he wanted to attack Iraq and get rid of saddam
[21:54] <Gregg`Romo> not ALL terrorists see it this way
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[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> would you support it nearly as much?
[21:54] <emily_on_NATIV> bye Debbie
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> I would probaly support it more
[21:55] <Debbie-Pinwheel> bye emily
[21:55] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> i'd support it more then than i do now
[21:55] <Debbie-Pinwheel> say hi to david for me!
[21:55] <miami> i dont support Bush at all
[21:55] <miami> hes a moron
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> Since there wasn't a flow of terrorists into Iraw
[21:55] <Justin_Hagalil> bush is a moron, but thats not the point
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> Iraq*
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> from Afghanistan
[21:55] <miami> ok so there were terrists from iraq...
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> but a flow of terrorists into Iraq isn't the reason taht Bush wants to attack Iraq
[21:55] <Justin_Hagalil> jason has a point, but looking back is hard to do
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> You see what the US Did, was *scatter* Al-Quaeda
[21:55] <Justin_Hagalil> there is no way to know what we would have done
[21:55] <miami> does that mean saddam is to blame
[21:55] <Gregg`Romo> Are you kidding me?
[21:55] <Justin_Hagalil> partly
[21:56] <Gregg`Romo> Bush knew it would happen
[21:56] <miami> i mean he is a evil person
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[21:56] <miami> if some americans were to blow up a bulding in japan does that mean that Bush is to blame?
[21:56] <Gregg`Romo> Now, the reasons we are attacking Iraq, publicly is because of two things
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[21:56] <Jason_Lustig> so if bush knew if wold happen, then why did he do it?
[21:56] <Gregg`Romo> Disarmment, and Regime Change
[21:56] <miami> doesnt mean Bush is a great person, but it doesnt make it a reason to go to war with that country
[21:56] <Gregg`Romo> He did it to destabilize the network
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> yes but then he can't take it out
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[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> It's the better evil of the two
[21:57] <newfrontierbay> he could be "redeeming" his father
[21:57] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> the thought of being known as the president to fight terrorism...though he's not necessarily doing well
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> You see, he can take it out
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> bush, by scattering the network, has made it possible to grow
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> It just takes longer
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> Not really
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> if he took it out all at once, then there wouldn't be any more al-quaida people left
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> It's like an ant colony
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> You take out the Queen(In this case Afghanistan) and the rest of the ants slowly die away
[21:57] <Gregg`Romo> You see you can't take it all out at once
[21:57] <newfrontierbay> hmmm
[21:58] <Gregg`Romo> Since we don't know where all of al-quaeda is
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> now, anyone who doesn't like the US can say "I'm an al-quaida operative, this is what bin Laden told us to do" and get together his own "cell" (even if he isn't part of al-quaida and is making it up), and committ acts of terorrism under the name of al-quaida
[21:58] <miami> your forgetting that american soldiers will die, and that innocent civilians will die, is that worth going in to "redeem his father"? i dont think so
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> and then bush will say "See, look, al-quaida is still around, we have to keep fighting this war"
[21:58] <miami> he got into a war he cant win
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[21:58] <Justin_Hagalil> i agree with miami
[21:58] <miami> there will always be terrorists
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> Actually Al-Quaeda is called, "The Base", the people arrested like those in buffalo, won't call themselves Al-Quaeda, and there are records of who are terrorists and who aren't
[21:59] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> that's true
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> American Soldiers will die
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> It's a consequence of war
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> Would you rather have 3000 civilians die
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> or 1000 soldiers?
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> i'd rather have no one die
[21:59] <Justin_Hagalil> people are people
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> People sign up for the military knowing they might die
[21:59] <Justin_Hagalil> soldier or civilian
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> It's a risk they take
[21:59] <miami> who are you to decide who is better than who to dies
[21:59] <miami> die*
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> Remember we don't have a draft
[21:59] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> ...yet
[21:59] <Justin_Hagalil> yet
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> Our Army is 100% Volunteers
[21:59] <Gregg`Romo> now
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[22:00] <miami> we have enough reserves
[22:00] <Justin_Hagalil> now, but maybe not soon
[22:00] <miami> but thats not the point
[22:00] <Gregg`Romo> And even if we do have a draft, it's our duty to protect our country
[22:00] <Gregg`Romo> As a Citizen it if your obligation to protect your country
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[22:00] <Gregg`Romo> and if you don't like it you can leave.
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[22:00] <miami> y sould we lose soldiers in a meaninless war that cant be won
[22:01] <Gregg`Romo> You don't see though, it can be won
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> i don't think it's meaningless
[22:01] <Gregg`Romo> The three main problems are:
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> but i don't think that it can be "won", to the extent
[22:01] <Gregg`Romo> A: Urban Warfare in Bagdhad this has to be avoided
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> until we catch bin Laden
[22:01] <miami> bin ladin is not the problem
[22:01] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> I dont' think catchingBin Laden will be of much help
[22:01] <Justin_Hagalil> it can be fought and won, but we have to be willing to lose people
[22:01] <Justin_Hagalil> unfortunately
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[22:01] <miami> if we kill him...then what?
[22:01] <miami> some1 worse will take his place
[22:02] <garsh> BUT, the real question is.....
[22:02] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> exactly
[22:02] <Gregg`Romo> B: Distrubition of Saddam's weapons of mass destructions to other terrorist cells he is affilliated with
[22:02] <miami> and so on and so on
[22:02] <garsh> where's canada in all this?
[22:02] <miami> lol
[22:02] <Gregg`Romo> C: An Attack on israel
[22:02] <miami> little america
[22:02] <garsh> little? we're bigger than the states!
[22:02] <miami> Israel can defend itself
[22:02] <Justin_Hagalil> sadaam has followers
[22:02] <Gregg`Romo> What happens if a SCUD missle with sarin in it flies over jerusalem?
[22:02] <Justin_Hagalil> if he falls they will take over
[22:02] <Gregg`Romo> people, lots of people die
[22:02] <miami> that has happened before
[22:02] <miami> gulf war
[22:03] <Gregg`Romo> Actually if Saddam falls they will all fall
[22:03] <miami> previous Bush
[22:03] <Justin_Hagalil> maybe
[22:03] <newfrontierbay> when we orginially went into Iraq the first time, our goal was to get saddam, however, we let him go and now he is a threat, what if bin laden becomes the same as saddam is now?
[22:03] <Gregg`Romo> In the Gulf War, no chemical weapons worked
[22:03] <Justin_Hagalil> bush let him go, and now his son wants to try again
[22:03] <Gregg`Romo> no it's not like that
[22:03] <miami> what the leasder of a country with a huge oil supply for the world?!?
[22:03] <miami> are you crazy
[22:03] <Gregg`Romo> our goal wasn't to get saddam
[22:03] <miami> the purpose now is all diffrent then when Bush SR when in
[22:04] <Justin_Hagalil> it was part of the goal
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> it was to drive him back from kuwait
[22:04] <miami> but it is still dumb
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> no it wasn't any part of the goal.
[22:04] <newfrontierbay> fine
[22:04] <miami> he's right
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> The US went on a US Resolution.
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> Err
[22:04] <newfrontierbay> but my pt is still valid
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> UN Resolution.
[22:04] <Justin_Hagalil> ok
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> And Bin Laden can't become something like Saddaam
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> but we don't have a UN resolution now
[22:04] <Adam-ECRUSY> no offense to anyone but the UN does absoloutley nothing
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> Since he isnt the leader of 40 million people
[22:04] <Gregg`Romo> In a Sovereign Country
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[22:05] <Gregg`Romo> Actually the UN does alot
[22:05] <TheKid> k
[22:05] <Gregg`Romo> And We don't have one UN Resolution
[22:05] <miami> the un does NOTHING
[22:05] <Gregg`Romo> We have 16!
[22:05] <Jason_Lustig> the UN does a lot, but only if the countries do it for them
[22:05] <Adam-ECRUSY> its pointless buecracy
[22:05] <Gregg`Romo> IN Article Seven of the UN Charter
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[22:05] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> not necessarily...it sets guidelines
[22:06] <Adam-ECRUSY> the un is anti-israel,and makes no sense whatsoever
[22:06] <Gregg`Romo> It states that if a country breaks a resolution or it poses a threat to any other sovereign country, the members of the security council have a right to help the other countries
[22:06] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> the UN is objective
[22:06] <Gregg`Romo> the US has the right to attack Iraq.
[22:06] <Gregg`Romo> The UN Is not anti-israel
[22:06] <Jason_Lustig> the uN is objective in the sense that it represents what the countries that make it up are
[22:06] <Gregg`Romo> the members of the UN may be anti-israel
[22:06] <Adam-ECRUSY> only in the UN do u have to ask permission from 15 countries to attack another one
[22:06] <miami> the united states provides OVER 50 % of the money for the UN yet we only have as big a say as any other country, even one that gives nothing, the UN army is made up of a hell of a lot of us soldiers
[22:06] <Jason_Lustig> if the countries that make up the UN are anti-israel, it passes anti-israel resolutions
[22:06] <Gregg`Romo> Actually only 9 countries, not 15.
[22:06] <Justin_Hagalil> of course the US does, but u dont know if the UN is anti-israel or not
[22:06] <Adam-ECRUSY> same differnce
[22:07] <miami> of course it is
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> The UN is objective.
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> No we don't
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> If a resolution for israel is passed it's pro israel
[22:07] <Adam-ECRUSY> and what happens if a countrey happens to not ask the other countries for permission, then the UN passes a meaningless peace of paper
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> if it's against israel, it's anti israel
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> there's no pro and anti in the UN
[22:07] <miami> what resolution was ever passed that was pro israel? ever?
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> since it's the consensus of most countries.
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> 1948!
[22:07] <miami> lol
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> the Israeli Homeland
[22:07] <Gregg`Romo> are you kidding me?
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> even that gave the good land to the Palestinians
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> we just got the negev and a little land on the coast.
[22:08] <Gregg`Romo> Israel was created because of the UN.
[22:08] <miami> they didnt think we could hold it on our own
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> that's the problem
[22:08] <Gregg`Romo> We have to support the palestinians too.
[22:08] <Adam-ECRUSY> when was the first time that the UN put israel on one of its commitees
[22:08] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> howso gregg
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> because it was created by the UN, other countries feel they can take it away
[22:08] <Gregg`Romo> Not all palestinians are bad, just the PLO, Fatah, Al-Aqsa and such.
[22:08] <miami> they didny give it to us, we had a war for it
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> if things had gone as planned, and we got self-determination on our own, then we would have full claim and nobody would have the say to take it away.
[22:08] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so you're saying that we should support the good palestinians in getting rid of the terrorists there
[22:08] <Gregg`Romo> If the Palestinians had a different leadership it would be different.
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> yes
[22:09] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> but how
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> support the good palestinians.
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> Think about it
[22:09] <miami> not true
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> Give money to the good ones
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> they get rid of the bad ones
[22:09] <miami> whos good?
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> And we're all happy
[22:09] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> especially if bush refuses to admit that there are terrorists in Palestine
[22:09] <miami> how do u define good and bad?
[22:09] <Adam-ECRUSY> the UN passes meaningless pieces of paper,if acountry fails to follow a peice of paper, anothe rone is passed, that is not progress
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> Bush doesn't refuse to admit it
[22:09] <Adam-ECRUSY> or helpful
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> Anti-Israel, Anti-US=Bad
[22:09] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> ok
[22:09] <Gregg`Romo> Pro Democracy, Pro Capitalism= Good
[22:10] <miami> wonderful, now realisticly
[22:10] <Gregg`Romo> actually it is, if arafat would just be bloody removed
[22:10] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> hehe, i'm related to karl marx directly
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[22:10] <Jason_Lustig> well, consider that the US isn't even democratic state, we're a republic.
[22:10] <Gregg`Romo> and in response to those pieces of paper, they helped start the korean war
[22:10] <Gregg`Romo> they allowed the gulf war
[22:11] <Gregg`Romo> the allowed the creation of the Peace keeping force that stopped slobidan milosivec
[22:11] <Gregg`Romo> and the genocide of ethnic albanians
[22:11] <Gregg`Romo> Don't doubt the UN.
[22:11] <Adam-ECRUSY> that was NATO not the UN
[22:11] <Gregg`Romo> One Second I can get the resolutoin if you want.
[22:12] <Jason_Lustig> but we're kinda getting off the topic now
[22:12] <Adam-ECRUSY> NATO bombed yugoslavia and sent in the peacekeeping frce
[22:12] <Jason_Lustig> Looking back on 9/11 now, what do you think?
[22:12] <Justin_Hagalil> i thought this was about 9/11, not yugoslavia
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[22:12] <Adam-ECRUSY> all that the UN did was condemn yugoslavias ations which does nothing
[22:12] <Adam-ECRUSY> it all connects
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[22:13] <Jason_Lustig> do you think that we, as americans, have kind of overdone the whole commemoration of the one-year after 9/11?
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[22:13] <Adam-ECRUSY> first of all, we are all not americans, second, in a way yes
[22:13] <Justin_Hagalil> considering we haven't fought on official US land before, what happebed was a big deal
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[22:14] <garsh> amen, adam
[22:14] <Jason_Lustig> (you know what i meant ;)
[22:14] <Justin_Hagalil> however, such a big commemeration might be too much when we can be doing other things
[22:14] <Adam-ECRUSY> the winner of American Idol was supposed to sing the anthem on 9/11 in washington
[22:14] <Justin_Hagalil> however, a cpmmemeration like this shows bin laden that he hasnt won
[22:14] <Adam-ECRUSY> that is mre commercialism than remembreance
[22:15] <Jason_Lustig> exactly
[22:15] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> but what happenned was a bit too much. The amount of patriotism that came out was nice to see, but it went a bit too far
[22:15] <Jason_Lustig> did we over-commercialize things?
[22:15] <Justin_Hagalil> maybe
[22:15] <Jason_Lustig> some would consider patriotism to be war-mongering nationalism
[22:15] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> yes, in a sense
[22:15] <Adam-ECRUSY> and yes the US has had wars on "official US land" before, just none in our time
[22:15] <garsh> 1812...
[22:16] <Jason_Lustig> that was a LONG time ago
[22:16] <Jason_Lustig> the civil war, even, but that was domestic
[22:16] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> i feel patriotism is a form of racial profiling
[22:16] <Adam-ECRUSY> britain burned the white house in 1812
[22:16] <Justin_Hagalil> i meant internationally
[22:16] <Gregg`Romo> hrmm anyway: http://www.unmikonline.org/
[22:16] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[22:16] <Gregg`Romo> Patriotism is indefinite
[22:16] <Justin_Hagalil> i stand corrected
[22:16] <Gregg`Romo> There is never "to much"
[22:16] <Jason_Lustig> Patriotism is something that americans made up
[22:17] <Jason_Lustig> yes there is... there is overkill
[22:17] <Gregg`Romo> NO
[22:17] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> exactly, there is
[22:17] <Gregg`Romo> IM AMERCIAN! :P
[22:17] <Adam-ECRUSY> the US and britain had quite a few wars int he past on american soil
[22:17] <Jason_Lustig> so am I!
[22:17] <Jason_Lustig> but you CAN mourn too much
[22:17] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> and you just profiled yourself and then everyone who isn't
[22:17] <Gregg`Romo> :P=sarcasm
[22:17] <Gregg`Romo> :P
[22:17] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> ok, ok
[22:17] <Gregg`Romo> I personally believe in profiling, for security purposes.
[22:17] <Justin_Hagalil> there is no mourning too much, but there is overcommercializing
[22:17] <garsh> who in here other than Jason is from tzafon? send me a private message...
[22:18] <Jason_Lustig> profiling is not the same as stereotyping, but often it leads to it
[22:18] <Gregg`Romo> agreed justin.
[22:18] <Gregg`Romo> Jah, that's why there has to be guidelines.
[22:19] <Justin_Hagalil> what kind of guidelines?
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[22:19] <Jason_Lustig> you mean guidelines to regulate profiling?
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[22:20] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> interesting
[22:20] <Jason_Lustig> it's hard to allow profiling
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[22:20] <Jason_Lustig> on the other hand, it's hard to say "No profiling" either
[22:20] <Jason_Lustig> because then everyone who fits the "profile" will then say that they were taken into custody because of racial profiling
[22:21] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[22:21] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> profiling is essential, but within reason and only if people realize that it shouldn't be used for stereotyping
[22:21] <Jason_Lustig> it's a paradox...
[22:21] <Adam-ECRUSY> im out all,nice chatting with u
[22:21] <Gregg`Romo> arabs after 9/11 we're taken into custody
[22:21] <Adam-ECRUSY> peace from canada
[22:21] <Gregg`Romo> since they were arab, at least a few
[22:21] <Jason_Lustig> remember what we did to the japanese during WW2...
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[22:21] <Gregg`Romo> ehh we're not talking internment camps
[22:21] <Gregg`Romo> however the president has the power to do it
[22:21] <Jason_Lustig> no but profiling is the start of that
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> not really
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> Stereotypes
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> and fear of other cultures is the start of that
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> Profiling is different
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> since it targets for a Reason, not because of a bias
[22:22] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> but profiling always seems to lead to it
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> Americans we're scared of Japanese in the 40s
[22:22] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> that reason is usually a bias
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> Not really
[22:22] <Gregg`Romo> The reason in case of 911
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> was because of terrorist possibilities
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> for instance, a recent trip to afghanistan
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> contact with a suspected terrorist
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> It's once again the greater evil.
[22:23] <Jason_Lustig> and it leads to paranoia
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> If we don't do it, we leave ourselves open to another attack.
[22:23] <Jason_Lustig> this is one of the problems I've seen coming forward over the past year
[22:23] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so if i look like a generic muslim extremist, i have a higher chance of being stopped for stuff even if i have no intention to stuff
[22:23] <Jason_Lustig> it seems that the government is playing on fear to get more power.
[22:23] <Gregg`Romo> yes
[22:24] <miami> no
[22:24] <Jason_Lustig> in a way it does
[22:24] <miami> it makes sense
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[22:24] <Gregg`Romo> You do.
[22:24] <Gregg`Romo> That's what happend in Florida the past week
[22:24] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[22:24] <Jason_Lustig> would you mind telling us exactly happened in FL?
[22:24] <Gregg`Romo> and they were on larry king live
[22:24] <miami> thats NOT what happened in florida
[22:24] <Gregg`Romo> and said they understood the profiling
[22:24] <miami> i live in miami i know
[22:24] <Jason_Lustig> then tell us...
[22:24] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so what happenned miami
[22:25] <Jason_Lustig> bc I don't live in florida...
[22:25] <miami> they made a off beat comment in Georgia, quote"
[22:25] <Justin_Hagalil> Two guys were in a restaurant on 9/11 and said out loud that everyone would regret 9/13
[22:25] <Justin_Hagalil> the waitress heard and called 911
[22:25] <miami> "they cried on 9/11 and no they will cry on 9/13"
[22:25] <miami> so the waitress called the cops
[22:25] <Justin_Hagalil> they were searched and cops think it was a practical joke
[22:25] <Justin_Hagalil> i think
[22:25] <Justin_Hagalil> or a customer
[22:25] <miami> they found these guys in south florida
[22:26] <Justin_Hagalil> correct
[22:26] <miami> they didnt let them search thier cars
[22:26] <miami> and everyone over reacted
[22:26] <Justin_Hagalil> i thought they were searched
[22:26] <miami> they were
[22:26] <Justin_Hagalil> ok
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> waitress heard and called 911
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> "they cried on 9/11 and no they will cry on 9/13"
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> so the waitress called the cops
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> they were searched and cops think it was a practical joke
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> i think
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> or a customer
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> they found these guys in south florida
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> correct
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> they didnt let them search thier cars
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> and everyone over reacted
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> i thought they were searched
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <miami> they were
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> <Justin_Hagalil> ok
[22:26] <miami> but they didnt give permission at first
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> oops...
[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> sorry guys
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[22:26] <Jason_Lustig> so basically they arrested these people based on what they said
[22:26] <garsh> guys, I'm lost.....I'm out....later!
[22:27] <miami> and what they looked like
[22:27] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[22:27] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> profiling and bias
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[22:27] <miami> if i were to have said it nothing would have happened
[22:27] <Justin_Hagalil> their looks played a big part
[22:27] <Jason_Lustig> if people are making direct threats, they should be taken into custody
[22:27] <miami> but since they were muslim they had a problem
[22:27] <miami> they didnt make a direct threat
[22:27] <Jason_Lustig> like if they say, "we're going to blow up the blah building on 9/13" then they should be taken
[22:27] <miami> of course
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[22:27] <miami> then it doent matter what you look like
[22:27] <Justin_Hagalil> cops say it was a practical joke as of now
[22:28] <miami> cuz they dont wanna look like idiots
[22:28] <Justin_Hagalil> who knows
[22:28] <miami> the 3 muslims
[22:28] <Justin_Hagalil> lol yeah
[22:28] <Jason_Lustig> yeah but now being muslim makes it so much more dangerous
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, first of all, not all muslims are arabs
[22:29] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> exactly
[22:29] <Justin_Hagalil> brb guys
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> ok i have an idea
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> let's try to get some more people
[22:29] <miami> lol
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> so let's all IM people to come and join us!
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> it's real easy
[22:29] <miami> sounds like a plan
[22:29] <Jason_Lustig> all you have to say is "there's a chat going on right now! come and join us! http://chat.usy.org/"
[22:29] <Justin_Hagalil> i'm back
[22:30] <Jason_Lustig> so i wonder what you guys think about something
[22:30] <Jason_Lustig> do you think that next year, on 9/11, there will be nearly as big of a "commemorization" as there was this year?
[22:30] <miami> no
[22:31] <Justin_Hagalil> no
[22:31] <Jason_Lustig> why not? what's the big difference between this year and next year?
[22:31] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> not as big, but there will be stuff...just as we still do some stuff for pearl harbor
[22:31] <Justin_Hagalil> this was a one year thing
[22:31] <miami> the problem with Americans is that they let the terriosts win
[22:31] <Jason_Lustig> (i think there won't be as big, but i'm just asking)
[22:31] <Justin_Hagalil> one year "anniversaroes
[22:31] <Justin_Hagalil> " are bigger than 2
[22:31] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> true
[22:31] <Jason_Lustig> well, there were FOUR moments of silence at my school
[22:32] <Jason_Lustig> it was kind of insane
[22:32] <miami> think about it like this, these are men that are live in cave for crying out loud and the strongest nation in the world is afraid that they will attack again, they put thier vice prez in hiding, and they all are glued to there tv's hoping that they dont die
[22:32] <Justin_Hagalil> o had one
[22:32] <miami> and they didnt have to attack
[22:32] <miami> just the thought of maybe
[22:32] <miami> they won
[22:33] <Justin_Hagalil> makes sense
[22:33] <miami> thats what they wanted
[22:33] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> wow
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[22:33] <Jason_Lustig> hi jenn!
[22:33] <miami> when u go on a plane you hope and praythat nothinghappens
[22:33] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> not necessarily
[22:33] <Justin_Hagalil> i went to FL back in june
[22:33] <Jason_Lustig> this is what we were talking about before, how we now live in fear because we didn't get rid of all of al-quaida when we could
[22:33] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> well, in a secular sense
[22:33] <Justin_Hagalil> i flew
[22:34] <Justin_Hagalil> i felt perfectly safe
[22:34] <miami> i fly like evry 3 weeks
[22:34] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> i fly all the time
[22:34] <miami> and there is no much freaking security
[22:34] <miami> its not normal
[22:34] <miami> but u know what
[22:34] <Justin_Hagalil> its weird, but good
[22:34] <miami> its not enough
[22:34] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[22:34] <miami> if a terriost wanted to hijack a plane, they could
[22:34] <Jason_Lustig> even if they weren't part of al-quaida
[22:35] <miami> thats just it
[22:35] <miami> they dont have to be part of a terror cell
[22:35] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> i have only ever had to have my bag swabbed by the spectrometer at security. YOu only have to kow how often they're taking people and jump in the right spot
[22:35] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[22:35] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so if i want to hijack a plane, i can
[22:35] <Jason_Lustig> they should be checking EVERYONE
[22:35] <Justin_Hagalil> they SHOULD be
[22:35] <Jason_Lustig> they took the planes with BOX CUTTERS
[22:35] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> that's sad
[22:36] <miami> they sould do what they do in El Al
[22:36] <miami> they have the right idea
[22:36] <Justin_Hagalil> whats that?
[22:36] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, if you had some strong guys, you could easily take a plane with their strength alone...
[22:36] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> El Al they even the scan the checked baggage
[22:36] <Justin_Hagalil> smart
[22:36] <Jason_Lustig> El Al knows what they're doing
[22:36] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> well, go figure
[22:36] <miami> the security there is the tightest of all the airline
[22:36] <Justin_Hagalil> at least someone does
[22:36] <Jason_Lustig> so then, why don't the american airlines do that too?
[22:36] <Jason_Lustig> what's stopping them?
[22:36] <miami> also they have 2 armed "guards" on every flight
[22:36] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> FAA
[22:37] <miami> bull s..t
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[22:37] <miami> they american airlines arent able to handle it yet
[22:37] <NUTSSPres> hi
[22:37] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[22:37] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> they won't allow pilots (unless it's changed) to have guns
[22:37] <miami> that makes sense
[22:37] <miami> you should not be firing a gun at 40,000 feet
[22:37] <Jason_Lustig> i think the important thing is that americans don't really value security as much as israelis
[22:38] <miami> if it goes through a wall in the plane, everyone dies
[22:38] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so you fire a gun to save the plane or ou let the hijackers take the plane and kill everyone
[22:38] <Justin_Hagalil> there are a lot metal detectors at newark...ahuge amount...but there are other ways to get through
[22:38] <Jason_Lustig> you could make the planes bulletproof...
[22:38] <Justin_Hagalil> maybe
[22:38] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> that's true, but it's expensive
[22:38] <Justin_Hagalil> no american would pay for that
[22:38] <miami> u dont get it, u fire a gun on-board and the whole plane combusts from the inside out at 40,000 feet
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[22:39] <Justin_Hagalil> that makes sense
[22:39] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> so then there's not much of a right answer, is there
[22:39] <Jason_Lustig> you know, people could just drive, it's much faster if you think about the security you have to go through toget on a plane ;)
[22:39] <Justin_Hagalil> driving is statistically less safe
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[22:39] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> SanDiego to NYC in 8 hours by car?!
[22:39] <Justin_Hagalil> and u cant get to israel by car
[22:39] <Jason_Lustig> you can take a boat ;)
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[22:40] <Justin_Hagalil> true
[22:40] <Justin_Hagalil> but they sink
[22:40] <Jason_Lustig> but seriously, flying to israel is safe -- you're usually on el al
[22:40] <miami> ya
[22:40] <Justin_Hagalil> a boat is as dangerous as a plane
[22:40] <Jason_Lustig> that's not the point
[22:40] <miami> when was the last time you heard of a boat sink?
[22:40] <miami> the titanic?
[22:40] <Jason_Lustig> a year ago, were you as concerned about security?
[22:41] <miami> of course not
[22:41] <miami> y would we be?
[22:41] <Jason_Lustig> when you got on a plane, and they didn't check your ID at the gate, or ask you about your bag, were you concerned at all?
[22:41] <Justin_Hagalil> no
[22:41] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> a year and 8 days ago, i wasn't worried abotu security. i'm still nor
[22:41] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> er not
[22:41] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> i just comply with them
[22:41] <NUTSSPres> sounds like a good chat going, but off to do homework, just got home from rehersal so keep the good chat up
[22:41] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> they still checked my ID
[22:41] <miami> we felt we were untouchable
[22:41] <Jason_Lustig> exactly
[22:41] <Jason_Lustig> we're not
[22:42] <Jason_Lustig> but we keep acting like we are
[22:42] <Justin_Hagalil> what i meant was that a terrorist could blow up a boat like crashing a plane
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[22:42] <RebCurlz_FWUSY> true
[22:42] <Justin_Hagalil> thats a US flaw
[22:42] <miami> sure, but a boat wont go into the tallest building in manattan
[22:42] <Justin_Hagalil> we always think we are invinsible until we are hit
[22:42] <Jason_Lustig> and a terrorist could easily hijack a boat and ram it into another boat
[22:42] <Justin_Hagalil> exactly
[22:42] <Justin_Hagalil> or into shore
[22:43] <Justin_Hagalil> a bridge
[22:43] <Jason_Lustig> a terrorist could cause an oil spill
[22:43] <Justin_Hagalil> also true
[22:43] <Jason_Lustig> imagine an oil spill in new york harbor...
[22:43] <miami> who says they wont
[22:43] <Justin_Hagalil> all proving my point
[22:43] <miami> see they won, your sacared and think think what they can do
[22:43] <miami> your thinking what they can do*
[22:44] <miami> but just like anthrax wasnt expected
[22:44] <Jason_Lustig> it's mind-wracking :(
[22:44] <miami> they will do what we dont expect
[22:44] <Jason_Lust