Chat Archive: 5/21/2002

This chat was run on May 21, 2002 from 9 PM EST to 11 PM EST. The topic was evolution.

Session Start: Tue May 21 20:02:42 2002
Session Ident: #usychat
[20:02] *** Now talking in #usychat
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[20:02] *** ChanServ changes topic to 'There is currently no topic (Jason_Lustig)'
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[20:03] *** Jason_Lustig changes topic to 'Evolution and all related topics'
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[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> hi rachel!
[20:51] <jeremymoses> tal or leona finestone
[20:51] <jeremymoses> hi rachel
[20:51] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 you would let leona be prez?
[20:51] <RachelCHUSY> hi
[20:51] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 hi rachel!
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[20:51] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 CLIEF!
[20:51] <Cliel> what up?
[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> hiya
[20:51] <jeremymoses> CLIEF!!!
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[20:52] <jeremymoses> she left!?
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[20:52] <jeremymoses> hi jodi
[20:52] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:52] <Jodi> Hi everyone
[20:52] <Jason_Lustig> which region, jodi?
[20:53] <Jodi> Hanegev
[20:53] <jeremymoses> done and done cliel
[20:53] <Jodi> I am pres of Barak in sunrise fl
[20:53] <jeremymoses> i wish i was from hanegev such good weather
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> e
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> oop
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> eh
[20:53] <Jodi> haha not lately, its been very rainy
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> it's too warm down there
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> i like snow
[20:53] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 snowed here tho...
[20:53] <Jodi> what reagion are you guys from
[20:53] <Jason_Lustig> tzafon!!
[20:53] <jeremymoses> ECRUSY!!
[20:54] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 the gr8est region in the land!
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> nope
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> tzafon is
[20:54] <Jodi> haha
[20:54] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 but it's in our cheer...
[20:54] <jeremymoses> if you like boring buffalo
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> maybe the person who wrote it... lied
[20:54] <jeremymoses> ouch
[20:54] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 *gasp!*
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> :D
[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> hehe
[20:54] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 jason's mean! boot him!
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> only i can do that!
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> i hold ultimate power
[20:55] <Jodi> 4haha
[20:55] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 dammit
[20:55] <jeremymoses> jason, buffalo is just a suburb of toronto
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> nope
[20:55] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 45 minutes away, jmo
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> canada is a parasite of the US
[20:55] <jeremymoses> so is thornhill tania
[20:55] <jeremymoses> ouch
[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> they want to be us but won't admit it bc they ahve too much pride
[20:55] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 I live 2 blocks north of the city, dude!
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[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[20:55] <jeremymoses> im american i dont deny its better
[20:55] <Jodi> hi
[20:55] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 hi! what's your name?
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[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> hey guys
[20:56] <Jodi> 4hi
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> where r u all from?
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[20:56] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 hagalil...are you Danny?
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> tzafon!
[20:56] <Jodi> 4 4,Hanegev
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> yup
[20:56] <jeremymoses> ecrusy
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> how'd u know?
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> hu r u?
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> your name rocks, danny
[20:56] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 I'm friends w/ Judah
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> thanks
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> o really? he's my best friend
[20:56] <HagalilCommVP> how du u know him?
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[20:56] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 that's how I know! um...IC...
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[20:57] <Jason_Lustig> in a few minutes, the chat will REALLY start so then we'll start talking about evolutoin
[20:57] <HagalilCommVP> what?
[20:57] <HagalilCommVP> what du u mean "that's how i know!" ?
[20:57] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 I met him at IC...we didn't keep in contact...then my friend sent me his AIM, and we're tight now
[20:57] <HagalilCommVP> i'll b right back
[20:57] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 that's how I know that you're Danny...
[20:57] <HagalilCommVP> o i c..i gotcha..i didn't get what u ment by ic
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[20:57] <jeremymoses> jason i apologize but i have a short attention span so i must go now even before the chat starts
[20:58] <Jason_Lustig> hahaha
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[20:58] <Jason_Lustig> hi rachel
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[20:58] <Hanefesh_CommVP> 6hey jason
[20:58] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 the Irish civil was is beckoning....I'll be back later
[20:58] <HagalilCommVP> hey again
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[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> before we start, i have an idea
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> on the count of THREE, each of us IMs some people and tells them to come
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[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> one...
[20:59] <HagalilCommVP> yea i have aol...but i can't im..but i can email
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> that works too
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> two........
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> THREE!
[20:59] * Jason_Lustig IMs some people
[20:59] <HagalilCommVP> but i check it about every 2 minutes so if you want to talk..look for me online..and then i'll write back
[20:59] <HagalilCommVP> i'm not online now
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[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[21:00] <_berde> hi
[21:00] <HagalilCommVP> zipzap1421@aol.com
[21:00] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 which Berde be you?
[21:00] <_berde> mara
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[21:00] <HagalilCommVP> or limpbizkit1421@hotmail.com, don't ask..i was young and stupid
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[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> aha
[21:01] <usycoolgal> hey
[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> so why doesn't everyone introduce themselves before we start
[21:01] <HagalilCommVP> now i'm online..so if ne of you see me you can email me netime
[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> so that everyone knows what region you're from, etc.
[21:01] <HagalilCommVP> ok i'll go first
[21:01] <dave_farber> ok ... so heres a statistic for you
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[21:01] <HagalilCommVP> dave u go
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[21:01] <dave_farber> im from tzafon
[21:01] <usycoolgal> i'm lisa banoff, from skokie illinois, and i am in BHUSY AKA CHUY regions's chapter of the year
[21:01] <usycoolgal> CHUSY*
[21:01] <_berde> 6 6 hi i'm mara berde from pinwheel
[21:01] <dave_farber> and 53% of Americans prefer creatinoism over evolution
[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> hi, i'm jason lustig
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[21:02] <Jason_Lustig> from T-Z-A-F-O-N, the best region!
[21:02] <swing03> hi im lindsay from crusy
[21:02] <HagalilCommVP> hey i'm danny palestine (yes it's my real name) from hagalil and i'm my regions communications vice president
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[21:02] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 Tania from BEBY in ECRUSY....wearing my funky new BEBY pants! wahoo! bye!
[21:02] <HagalilCommVP> no way..its definatly hagalil
[21:02] <dave_farber> that means 1/2 the American population disregards a blatantly obvious scientific fact
[21:02] <swing03> i am also my regions comm vp
[21:02] <HagalilCommVP> nice
[21:02] <Jason_Lustig> well since when is popularity a measure of fact?
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[21:02] <Hagalil_Dancer> i thhi, i'm Danielle from HAGALIL!
[21:02] <HagalilCommVP> hey danielle! its danny!
[21:02] <Hagalil_Dancer> i know!!!! 12
[21:02] <dave_farber> its not ... just to show how people disregard science
[21:03] <Jason_Lustig> well some people are ignorant to begin with
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[21:03] <HagalilCommVP> hey danielle
[21:03] <HagalilCommVP> so what r we talking about 2nite?
[21:03] <Jason_Lustig> evolution
[21:03] <dave_farber> so the fact is ... people believe the story of creation more than the theory of evolution
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> well, creation is based on faith
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> evolution is based on science
[21:04] <HagalilCommVP> but on the other hand...the story of evolution is more believe able to the common person
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> is it?
[21:04] <dave_farber> Well, as a conservative Jew i disregard the whole first book fo genesis as a frace maybe up until the generations of Abraham
[21:04] <dave_farber> farce*
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> what about the flood?
[21:04] <_berde> 6 as jews what do we believe in... sorry dumb question i know
[21:04] <HagalilCommVP> i think so...its hard to believe that some guy that some people believe in made an entire universe in 6 days..
[21:04] <swing03> it happiened
[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> many cultures have a flood story
[21:05] <dave_farber> but that's the Watchmaker theory
[21:05] <dave_farber> god designed intricate human beings
[21:05] <swing03> yeah and we believe them and they are still thought and thought about today as real
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[21:05] <Guest18073> 6hey guys
[21:05] <HagalilCommVP> say that again in layman's terms
[21:05] <dave_farber> evolution is so blatantly true though
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> microevolution is
[21:06] <emily_sowalsky> hey guys I'm back
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> microevolution ish the idea that species evolve
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> but in small ways, like skin color and stuff
[21:06] <dave_farber> ok so the wtachmkaer theory: It's that god created complez human beings like a watchmaker creates a watch?
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[21:06] <_berde> 6 didnt god create animals before people right?
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:06] <HagalilCommVP> ok so what's the problem w/that?
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> same in both versions
[21:06] <dave_farber> the theory poses this question ... how does somwething so complicated just fall into place by chance... ??
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> because there's no chance involved
[21:07] <dave_farber> like a watch can't just fall into place
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[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> it can, if it had the ability to evolve
[21:07] <HagalilCommVP> who created this idea in the first place? why should we believe this?
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> darwin is my hero
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[21:07] <HagalilCommVP> darwin was a crock...
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[21:07] <dave_farber> yo udon't have to ... it's a theory
[21:07] <dave_farber> nah he was right
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> just like the big bang?
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[21:08] <HagalilCommVP> he had his eveolution thingy down...but all in all..survival of the fittest isn't the way to go
[21:08] <dave_farber> except he based evolution on gradualism
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[21:08] <dave_farber> it really should be based o npunctuated ....
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> but it IS the way that things work, survival of the fittest
[21:08] <dave_farber> ioh i forget the word
[21:08] <saxy> hey
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> hi
[21:08] <Iggers13> hi
[21:08] <Guest18073> 6equilobrium dave?
[21:08] <adina> hey hey
[21:08] <HagalilCommVP> what about helping the weak? that works too
[21:08] <dave_farber> punctuated equilibrium yes
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> puncutated equilibrium?
[21:08] <dave_farber> thx guest person
[21:08] <saxy> anyone from philly?
[21:09] <Guest18073> 6ur welcome
[21:09] <dave_farber> punctuated equilibrium is the theory that change happens rapidly because of a certain stress
[21:09] <dave_farber> the stress is usually a mass extinction
[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> well, the theory of evolution is based on the idea that...
[21:09] <HagalilCommVP> or it happens because it is forced to happen by the environement
[21:09] <Hagalil_Dancer> 4 3hi lee
[21:09] <HagalilCommVP> hi leah
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[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> there are always creatures who have extra stuff, from mutations
[21:09] <dave_farber> .... 3/4 of the species of the world die off ... and animals evolve quickly to their new environment ...
[21:09] <HagalilCommVP> like..?
[21:09] <dave_farber> an ice age could trigger rapid adaptation and evolution
[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> take the extinction of the dinosaurs
[21:10] <saxy> hi im mike/17 from hagesher usy!
[21:10] <HagalilCommVP> thanks
[21:10] <Guest18073> 4but most creatures who have mutations dont survive
[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:10] <HagalilCommVP> how can u say that? how do u think human's survived?
[21:10] <Guest18073> or they pass the gene on if they by chance, survive
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[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> but when change occurs, those who have the right mutations are the only ones that survive
[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> that's how species survive
[21:10] <dave_farber> no creaturesd with mutations who die off were meant to die off
[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> otherwise they would die off
[21:10] <dave_farber> because the mutation didn't help
[21:11] <Leefish> heyy
[21:11] <HagalilCommVP> things change to survive..not to change for the sake of changing
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> some mutations hurt though
[21:11] <dave_farber> only helpful mjutations are carried on ... because that organism doesn't die
[21:11] <dave_farber> then the anima with bad mutation dies
[21:11] <Leefish> so hows in here?
[21:11] <Guest18073> and the ones that survive have been chosen by natural selection
[21:11] <Leefish> this is so cool!
[21:11] <Leefish> hey fish!
[21:11] <HagalilCommVP> animals don't make bad mutations..they adapt to help themselvfs
[21:11] <dave_farber> exactly guest
[21:11] <Iggers13> lol
[21:11] <saxy> hey swing03
[21:11] <Guest18073> i have a name dave
[21:11] <HagalilCommVP> hey lee
[21:11] <dave_farber> hagalil adaptation and mutation are 2 different things
[21:11] <HagalilCommVP> its' danny
[21:12] <dave_farber> mutations are random and can't be helped
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> i have a question
[21:12] <dave_farber> adaptations are different they dont require new genes
[21:12] <HagalilCommVP> they're xactly the same..just brought on by different things
[21:12] <HagalilCommVP> but both are mostly helpful...
[21:12] <dave_farber> no mutation is change in DNA structue
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> it's not just mutation
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> it's... i forget the word
[21:12] <dave_farber> actual change in the DNA ...
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[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> recessive traits
[21:12] <HagalilCommVP> o i c
[21:12] <Leefish> i know fish
[21:12] <Leefish> how r ya
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> like being left-handed
[21:12] <Leefish> i havent talked to u in so long!
[21:12] <HagalilCommVP> i am!
[21:13] <HagalilCommVP> sorry off topic
[21:13] <Jlove0230> hey all
[21:13] <Iggers13> hi
[21:13] <dave_farber> well jason ... polydectomy ... the tarit of having 6 fingers or toes is actually dominant
[21:13] <Guest18073> yeah rihgthandedness is dominant in that case
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> is it really?
[21:13] <dave_farber> but .... how many people with 6 fingers or toes do you know?
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> not many
[21:13] <dave_farber> not man ybecause that trait has no evolutionary value
[21:13] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3 fish
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:13] <dave_farber> 6 fingers doesn't help you
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> it could
[21:13] <dave_farber> ... it can get in the way
[21:13] <HagalilCommVP> but that's the a mutation..that's an adaptation
[21:14] <saxy> hi
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> an adaptation is a mutation that helps you
[21:14] <HagalilCommVP> right
[21:14] <dave_farber> it can be ...
[21:14] <Guest18073> and natural selection has decided that 6 fingers gets in the way
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:14] <HagalilCommVP> you can't say 6 fingers doesn't help until time passes
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[21:14] <dave_farber> well ... it doesn't ... see man ypeople with 6 fingers?
[21:14] <Leefish> what are you guys talking about??
[21:14] <HagalilCommVP> it just happens that humans only need 5 but in the future if there is something higher on the food chain than us..then who knows
[21:14] <dave_farber> polydectomy has been around for man yman yyears
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> evolution!
[21:14] <HagalilCommVP> evolution..leah..u missed everythign!
[21:15] <Leefish> i gues so!
[21:15] <HagalilCommVP> yup
[21:15] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3 hehe lee
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[21:15] <HagalilCommVP> lee..use the im so we don't interrupt the convo
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> well say that sometime in the future there would be a good reason we would need 6 fingers
[21:15] <HagalilCommVP> ok lets
[21:15] <dave_farber> then that would be a "selection pressure"
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:15] <Guest18073> and natural selection will give us 6 fingers
[21:15] <HagalilCommVP> ok...
[21:15] <saxy> hello anyone
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> over the course of many generations
[21:15] <dave_farber> people with 5 fingers would be at a disadavnatage
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:16] <HagalilCommVP> this is true
[21:16] <dave_farber> and therefore would not mate as much
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> so then they wouldn't reproduce as much
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> and 6-fingered people would reproduce more
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> and we'd get more 6-fingered humans
[21:16] <dave_farber> yep
[21:16] <HagalilCommVP> humans are humans..not animals..they don't base their mating on deformaties or the higher person..
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[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> over the course of a long time then wed get humans with 6 fingers
[21:16] <HagalilCommVP> correct
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[21:16] <dave_farber> hagalil that may be true
[21:16] <HagalilCommVP> it is true..that's why g-d gave us the power to think and choose..not just to go by instinct
[21:16] <dave_farber> ... but if people with 6 fingers happen to live longer or live to an age where they can reproduce then they
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> well with humans, after a certain age you can't reproduce
[21:17] <dave_farber> will be advantage
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> so living longer really won't help much
[21:17] <HagalilCommVP> all that due to one xtra finger i think is pusing it
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[21:17] <dave_farber> ok hagalil its an example
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[21:17] <dave_farber> say another mutatio nhappened
[21:17] <HagalilCommVP> i know..i'm just playing devil's advocate
[21:17] <Iggers13> jlove, where are you from?
[21:17] <dave_farber> like sickle cell anemia ... that's a mutation right?
[21:17] <HagalilCommVP> right
[21:18] <dave_farber> well being a carrier of sickle cell ... that means having one good allele and one sickle cell allele is good ....
[21:18] <HagalilCommVP> dave and jason...did u guys put this chatroom 2gether?
[21:18] <dave_farber> why becuz it helps stop malaria ...
[21:18] <HagalilCommVP> right i got that
[21:18] <HagalilCommVP> yes
[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> no, i put it together
[21:18] <dave_farber> ok ... so say u livei n africa where there is lots of malaria
[21:18] <dave_farber> ... people with regular genes on both will die from malaria ...
[21:18] <indyusyer> survival of the fittest
[21:18] <dave_farber> and people with 2 sickle cell genes on both will die from sickle cell ...
[21:18] <dave_farber> the carriers are the fittest ...
[21:19] <HagalilCommVP> that's total chance tho...not based on who mates with who...
[21:19] <dave_farber> they survive to next generation
[21:19] <Guest18073> cuz they cant get it
[21:19] <HagalilCommVP> the carries were lucky
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[21:19] <dave_farber> well if the person dies from malaria then u can tmate with him
[21:19] <dave_farber> if the perso ndies from sickle cell u can tmate with him
[21:19] <indyusyer> you woudln't want to...your children would have a greater chance of dying
[21:19] <dave_farber> no they had an advnatage
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> i have a question... if people can't agree on whether creation or evolution is true, then why are EITHER taught in schools?
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[21:19] <HagalilCommVP> but it didn't start out as two diffent people one having it and one not..someobyd just picked it up
[21:20] <Guest18073> because the question will always be posed
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[21:20] <Jason_Lustig> well, they can either teach both or none
[21:20] <dave_farber> ok hagalil if u have 2 good genes ... say u die fro mmalaria before u can reproduce
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[21:20] <dave_farber> ... that means only carriers can reproduce
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[21:20] <HagalilCommVP> becuase evolution can b proven...creation is a story that people believe in..usually having to do w/ relgion..and there is seperation between church and state
[21:20] <Guest18073> 6thats y, in i think kansas, creationism is bannewd in schools
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[21:20] <dave_farber> Scopes monkey trial
[21:21] <Guest18073> exactly
[21:21] <indyusyer> i never learned creationism in school
[21:21] <HagalilCommVP> lee-..if you doulbe click on my name u can im me
[21:21] <indyusyer> high school that is
[21:21] <dave_farber> .... best court case ever
[21:21] <Jason_Lustig> well if they teach judeo-christian creationism, they should also teach the hindu version and stuff like that
[21:21] <HagalilCommVP> i guess ur rite
[21:21] <Guest18073> 6but then theres the other religions
[21:21] <HagalilCommVP> i c what u mean..but my point goes along w/that also
[21:21] <Iggers13> that was a good case
[21:21] <HagalilCommVP> but they dont teach judeo-christian in public schools..they only teach evolution
[21:21] <dave_farber> Evolution is the only system backed up by truth ..
[21:21] <HagalilCommVP> true
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[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> well we don't have scientific data for millions of years so we relly can't prove it
[21:22] <dave_farber> yea we do...
[21:22] <Iggers13> i agree with jason
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> in a couple of million years, we could prove it
[21:22] <indyusyer> there are still gaps
[21:22] <Guest18073> 6all we have are fossil records
[21:22] <dave_farber> fossil record ...
[21:22] <Iggers13> on that last thing
[21:22] <dave_farber> and how about darwin's finches?
[21:22] <dave_farber> on the galapagos
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> that just says that FINCHES ROCK!
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[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> but seriuosly
[21:22] <dave_farber> how about bacteria ....
[21:23] <HagalilCommVP> what bacteria?
[21:23] <dave_farber> put a stress in their environment ... antibiotics
[21:23] <dave_farber> what do they do ...
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> they duie
[21:23] <HagalilCommVP> dave..where r u from?
[21:23] <dave_farber> they die
[21:23] <Guest18073> 6antibiotics are bad!
[21:23] <dave_farber> and soem who mutate live ...
[21:23] <Iggers13> i agree with evolution, but creationists could just say that G-d put bacteria on earth. and later, humans.
[21:23] <dave_farber> those that mutate can reproduce because they are immune ...
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> that's microevolution, dave
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> macroevolution is what we're talking about
[21:23] <Jenn_Krueger> Shalom USY. Here's my view. Everyone thought the World was flat until it was proven it wasn't. I don't think we should be completely reliant on science-although we should keep attempting to figure it out
[21:23] <dave_farber> it's the same concept
[21:23] <Guest18073> 6cuz of the 10% rule, 10% of the bacteria will survive and build up resistance that will be passed to the next generation
[21:23] <dave_farber> the exact same
[21:24] <dave_farber> except bacteria evolve way faster ...
[21:24] <dave_farber> bacteria ... rule the world ...
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[21:24] <Guest18073> 6yeah
[21:24] <Ilana_Rachel> Jenn, you have an awesome point
[21:24] <HagalilCommVP> brb
[21:24] <dave_farber> there are more Monerans than all the otherl ife forms combined ...
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[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
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[21:25] <Ilana_Rachel> hey emily!
[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> can both evolution and creationism work together?
[21:25] <Jason_Lustig> like, both be true?
[21:25] <Ilana_Rachel> yes
[21:25] <sami_jess> yes...
[21:25] <Ilana_Rachel> they ahve to
[21:25] <Iggers13> i think so
[21:25] <Jenn_Krueger> well, I just believe that we can't know anything for sure and always must continue to question
[21:25] <Iggers13> thats what i believe in
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[21:25] <dave_farber> Well ... Darwi nproposed God as a "MOver of the Movers"
[21:25] <dave_farber> the power that created the first basic life forms ...
[21:25] <Iggers13> hm. thats an interesting point
[21:26] <Jenn_Krueger> Do you mean creation by creationsim?
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> my view on evolution is that God created evolution to create life... then all he had to do was to manipulate the environment and he could create whatever he wanted through the process of evolution
[21:26] <sami_jess> 4some midrashim dsay that each day "represents" steps in evolution. if you think about it all works in "order"
[21:26] <sami_jess> 4day of creation that is
[21:26] <sami_jess> and jason i agree with you
[21:27] <indyusyer> the day in the bible isn't necessarily how we know it today
[21:27] <sami_jess> 4if gd sees a flaw, evolution can be used to correct it
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> well, a day in creation doesn't necessarily ahve to be a literal day
[21:27] <P-Wiz> some ppl say that each day represents a billion years
[21:27] <Jenn_Krueger> Rashi says that. It's bc there could not have been the existence of a day as a 24 hour period bf the 4th day bc the sun and moon weren't created yet
[21:27] <P-Wiz> so we are only on the 6th day
[21:27] <P-Wiz> and the messiah wil come on the seventh
[21:27] <sami_jess> 4a day can be interpreted
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> well my thoughts also go along that we're still in the midle of creation
[21:27] <HagalilCommVP> hey i'm back..what r we talking about?
[21:27] <Jenn_Krueger> Rashi says each day is a stage and creation was only in the form on days to set a parallel for Shabbat
[21:28] <indyusyer> it will never be complete
[21:28] <Pubs_Coordinator> has anyone ever heard of the book "Genesis and the Big Bang"
[21:28] <HagalilCommVP> nope
[21:28] <sami_jess> 4no please elaborate??
[21:28] <Jason_Lustig> why don't you tell us what it's about?
[21:28] <Pubs_Coordinator> it's written by this guy who's has a PhD in Physics and Theology
[21:28] <P-Wiz> who takes US history, scopes trial ring a bell?
[21:28] <indyusyer> 7yes it does
[21:28] <Iggers13> 13yeah
[21:29] <HagalilCommVP> didn't get up to that yet
[21:29] <sami_jess> 4ya
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[21:29] <indyusyer> 7it was on the AP!
[21:29] <Pubs_Coordinator> basically it says that the Big Bang theory, and the six days in the Genesis story can be reconciled
[21:29] <HagalilCommVP> how?
[21:29] <sami_jess> 4evolution and creation are tied together.
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> they have to be
[21:29] <HagalilCommVP> xplain
[21:30] <Pubs_Coordinator> the "how" is due to theory of relativity - different perceptions of time from different places
[21:30] <Pubs_Coordinator> i.e., a "day" in the Bible story isn't necessarily a literal day
[21:30] <Jenn_Krueger> Heree's how: the first pasuk in the Torah says and the Earth was tohu uvohu. Rambam explains that tohu refers to a little speck and bohu come from the verb bo-to go. So, the spech iwth out and expanded into the World and it is still explanding
[21:31] <HagalilCommVP> but then how could people thousands of years ago know about the theory of the big bang? they didn't have the technology to knwo about it
[21:31] <P-Wiz> who klnows
[21:31] <Pubs_Coordinator> what's technology..... the Big Bang is an idea that life started somewhere and somehow
[21:31] <sami_jess> 4no matter how u see it, evolution is happening all arround you. how else can you explain y giraffes have long necks, or other things that seem to be left up to chance. creation statest that Gd created the world. but Gd does creat the world, through stragetically placed science
[21:31] <Iggers13> they wouldnt have been able to understand it.
[21:31] <Jenn_Krueger> I learned that Rambam and Rashi knew about the Big Bang before any scientists did
[21:31] <P-Wiz> all i know that in ohio there was a case to decide whether they would teach about both the big bang and creation in the classrooms
[21:31] <P-Wiz> kinda weird
[21:32] <Pubs_Coordinator> for anyone who is interested in reading the book, I highly recommend it, the author's name is Gerald Schulman
[21:32] <sami_jess> 4its not so much big bang as it is evolution, the idea that things have changed over time
[21:32] <Pubs_Coordinator> Gerald Schroeder, sorry
[21:33] <P-Wiz> 3things have obviously changed, and will continue to change
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[21:33] <Iggers13> i've heard a really coommonly accepted theory... The story of creation was made up because it was the only way people knew how to explain what happened. there was no way they would have understood the big bang or evolution...
[21:33] <P-Wiz> it's all very confusing to me
[21:33] <HagalilCommVP> hey leora!
[21:33] <Leora-Hagalil> DP!
[21:33] <HagalilCommVP> yo
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[21:33] <sami_jess> 4if you looka t creation and at evolution, they occure at thesame patterns, time wise
[21:33] <P-Wiz> the fact that something can come from nothing............
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[21:34] <Leora-Hagalil> danny- im me at Superberri
[21:34] <HagalilCommVP> i can't im on aol
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[21:34] <HagalilCommVP> geoff!
[21:34] <sami_jess> 4that i dont understand either
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> hi guys
[21:34] <geoff-doloff> hiya
[21:34] <dave_farber> exactly here listen to this verse of the torah : Genesis, chpt 1: v.20 "And god said come forth form the water all the swarms of living beings and birds that fly above the earth ..."
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> what did i miss when i was on the phone?
[21:34] <P-Wiz> everything
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[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> haha
[21:34] <dave_farber> evolutio nteaches us that life startedi n the ocean
[21:34] <geoff-doloff> what is the theme of this discussion?
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[21:34] <dave_farber> the Mayim ... the water
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> it does start in the ocean though
[21:35] <geoff-doloff> evolution?
[21:35] <sami_jess> it all works, just not as... quickly
[21:35] <Iggers13> i've got to go... everyone, enjoy the chat!
[21:35] <P-Wiz> how could the ocean just exist?
[21:35] <HagalilCommVP> later
[21:35] <P-Wiz> i thought there was tohu vvohu
[21:35] <P-Wiz> chaos
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> before the continents existed, it was just one big ocean
[21:35] <HagalilCommVP> yes
[21:35] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3 yes
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[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> that's the way it was, proven scientifically
[21:35] <P-Wiz> pangea
[21:35] <Richard_Weiss> Shalom Chaverim
[21:35] <dave_farber> P-wiz ... there are meteors that hit earth ... with ice
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> no, that was the big continent
[21:35] <P-Wiz> shalom
[21:35] <garshie_ecrusy> pangaea is my worst enemy...
[21:35] <dave_farber> te ice melts and creates oceans ... (1 theory)
[21:35] <P-Wiz> correct
[21:35] <geoff-doloff> haha thanks jason
[21:35] <adina_indy> massive earthquakes
[21:35] <geoff-doloff> i am sorry you feel that way garshie
[21:36] <Guest18073> 6im outta here...yall lost me at big bang
[21:36] <dave_farber> ok so thats our ocean
[21:36] <Guest18073> 6bye
[21:36] <dave_farber> but from creatio nwe have god created the oceans ...
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[21:36] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 12don't worry Geoff....that was last year's course, and I'm never taking geography again!
[21:36] <P-Wiz> true ture
[21:36] <HagalilCommVP> hey tania!
[21:36] <P-Wiz> it's what you believe
[21:36] <geoff-doloff> haha
[21:36] <geoff-doloff> i am not either
[21:36] <P-Wiz> whatever my faith is in hashem
[21:36] <P-Wiz> cause i have no better reasoning
[21:36] <geoff-doloff> word up pwiz
[21:36] <sami_jess> its ok tania, the continents are split up now
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> the issue is whether you think that G-d created evolution or if he directly created everything
[21:36] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 yay!
[21:37] <P-Wiz> he created everything
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[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> direclty?
[21:37] <sami_jess> using evolution as a tool,
[21:37] <geoff-doloff> hmmmm very interesting jason
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> i.e. he just said "i want this" and it happened?
[21:37] <sami_jess> im big on tools
[21:37] <HagalilCommVP> i think he created evolution
[21:37] <dave_farber> well God could do that ... but why?
[21:37] <sami_jess> said i want this, how can i use what i ahve created to do this, oh its a good thing i created evolution
[21:37] <P-Wiz> no i think he created everuything
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[21:37] <dave_farber> God didn't create evolution ... evolution is our own shortcomings ..
[21:37] <P-Wiz> and once it all was created, we evolved over the years
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> of course he created everything
[21:38] <dave_farber> its' the fact that nothing is perfect besides god ...
[21:38] <P-Wiz> granted there was a flood which slowed the process down
[21:38] <HagalilCommVP> if it what the other way around..then everything that people have proven is false..which is wrong because they proved it...i think he started off small and then let itself work up big
[21:38] <geoff-doloff> i think that is the beauty of believing in g-d however. We may reason that he created everything one at a time...but for people that have scientific proof that evolution existed, we can just say that g-d creatd the process of evolution...
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[21:38] <geoff-doloff> how do you mean dave?
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[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> however most of what G-d does these days is indirect... miracles that we take for granted like us waking up in the morning
[21:38] <dave_farber> ok
[21:38] <HagalilCommVP> xactly geoff
[21:38] <dave_farber> so what is a mutation ..
[21:38] <dave_farber> since mutations are the basis of evolution ..
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[21:38] <P-Wiz> i hate bio
[21:38] <sami_jess> a mistake of evolution, not GD
[21:38] <Jenn_Krueger> I think Hashem had to create evolution. It couldn't just arouse on it's own
[21:38] <dave_farber> a mutatio nis a mistakein the replication of DNA correct?
[21:38] <sami_jess> 4yes
[21:38] <HagalilCommVP> right
[21:38] <Leora-Hagalil> jenn you rock- i totally agree
[21:38] <Jenn_Krueger> alright!
[21:38] <dave_farber> when our DNA replicates we have 6 billion base pairs to assemble
[21:38] <geoff-doloff> they aren't the basis of evolution actually...the basis of evolution is the survival of the fittest...mutations just are a part of it
[21:38] <dave_farber> in each cell
[21:39] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 science can't really prove anything....they think things have happened that aren't always right...some people think they've proven that the moon doesn't exist...doesn't mean they're right
[21:39] <adina_indy> 12anyone taking AP BIO?
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> AP bio's over
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[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> science can propose THEORIES
[21:39] <dave_farber> the enzyme that replicates our DNa makes on average 3 mistakes every time it replicates our DNA ...
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> that's a LOT of mistakes
[21:39] <HagalilCommVP> how can't it prove anything! all it is proving
[21:39] <geoff-doloff> that is a very very very bad analogy garshie
[21:39] <dave_farber> thats 3 mistakes out of 6 billion ...
[21:39] <P-Wiz> well we all make mistakes
[21:39] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 I know...it was all I could think of tho...
[21:39] <P-Wiz> 3come on no one is perfect
[21:39] <sami_jess> 4without mistakes, we would all be the same, nothing would change, its because of mutations, the small ones, that we aare so diverse,
[21:39] <HagalilCommVP> those people are crazy tho!
[21:39] <dave_farber> exactly
[21:39] <P-Wiz> 3mistakes make us unique
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> yeah dave...exactly...3 out of 6 million...that hardly afects anything
[21:40] <Jenn_Krueger> It does prove things but what it proves is not the final answer. WE can never understand it completely. If we did, we would be like G-d
[21:40] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3 i agree
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[21:40] <sami_jess> things change because the mutation fit the environment they lived int
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[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> it also has to do with how the DNA mixes when people reproduce
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> I HIGHLY DISAGREE SAMI
[21:40] <dave_farber> as we move up into higher life forms evolution slows down?
[21:40] <Leefish> heyy fish im back
[21:40] <popo418> hi geoff!
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> we are diverse and differen't because we want to be not because a mutation made us that way
[21:40] <HagalilCommVP> hey leah
[21:40] <dave_farber> we don't evolve
[21:40] <sami_jess> no, i mean thats what mutations do
[21:40] <HagalilCommVP> hey peninah
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> well currently, evolution is at a standstill with humans
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> who is popo
[21:40] <popo418> hey danny!
[21:40] <sami_jess> i mean mechanically
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> we are perfectly adapted to our environment
[21:40] <popo418> peninah
[21:40] <dave_farber> geoff ... mutations make us different ...
[21:40] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3 hi lee
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> hey peninah
[21:40] <dave_farber> and the combination of different alleles ...
[21:40] <geoff-doloff> NOT TRUE JASON...
[21:40] <HagalilCommVP> jason...how can that b?
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> and now evolution has moved to other planes
[21:40] <dave_farber> and alleles arecreated by mutations
[21:40] <sami_jess> geoff..... carrots91884, IM me
[21:40] <popo418> wats goin on>
[21:41] <HagalilCommVP> we can always make ourselvs better
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> such as how competitive of a businessperson you are
[21:41] <dave_farber> so in essence all variation can be tarced back to mutations
[21:41] <geoff-doloff> that is funny to think that we are perfectly adapted to our environment..
[21:41] <popo418> what r we all talkin about here??
[21:41] <geoff-doloff> OUR ENVIRONMENT CAN'T LIVE WITH US...we are destroying it
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> biologically, we are
[21:41] <P-Wiz> i am gettibg all mixed up
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> because we can craete antibiotics and stuff
[21:41] <adina_indy> we are making the environment adapt to us
[21:41] <HagalilCommVP> u think so? i think that we can improve much more
[21:41] <P-Wiz> 3too confusing for me
[21:41] <geoff-doloff> furthermore, if evolution does exist...which i am not saying it does...than it is a slow and continuous process...
[21:41] <sami_jess> because the mutations fit, survival of the fittest, the giraffe with the long neck was prominent because the mutated one could reach the food
[21:41] <popo418> danny did u get my email
[21:41] <HagalilCommVP> true...
[21:41] <dave_farber> exactly ...
[21:41] <Jenn_Krueger> I agree
[21:42] <HagalilCommVP> yes..i need to write back
[21:42] <geoff-doloff> sami jess who is this?
[21:42] <dave_farber> and now science has proven thatcertain behaviors are linked to genetics
[21:42] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 it's sexysatosam!
[21:42] <sami_jess> sam soloway nerusy
[21:42] <dave_farber> the debate over nature vs. nurture
[21:42] <popo418> yes bc i dont know wat to do 4 the yr book ting
[21:42] <geoff-doloff> tahnk you sami
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> the point is that because everyone helps everyone else out these days, which is a good thing, suvrival of the fittest does not exist like it used to
[21:42] <dave_farber> exactly jason ...
[21:42] <geoff-doloff> sami-im me-ybnorml3
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> instead of being based on who is strongest or whatever
[21:42] <dave_farber> evolutio nin humans has almost stopped ..
[21:42] <geoff-doloff> that is an L not an I
[21:42] <sami_jess> well... that is in humans, but there are other beings on the earth besideshumans
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> it is based on other things
[21:42] <HagalilCommVP> right...but if that wasn't the case..we would b on the botton of the food chain...we are so weak..but our minds make us strong
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> then again, the strength of our minds kills us -- take war for example
[21:43] <popo418> yea...
[21:43] <geoff-doloff> you are wrong jason...i figured you not to be this ideastic...If only everyone helped everyone else...my position wouldn't exit
[21:43] <HagalilCommVP> this is ture
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[21:43] <Jenn_Krueger> Survival of the fittest is proven by the fact that so many species have died out. The ones that remain are either strong or fighting for survival.
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> no it would be a bigger position
[21:43] <dave_farber> no we are syaing evolution as we see it doesn't exist ...
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> jenn is right
[21:44] <dave_farber> in humans ..
[21:44] <HagalilCommVP> thus...like i said b4.we can always improve..humans have a lot to work on
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:44] <Jenn_Krueger> how could it not exist?
[21:44] <dave_farber> Jenn .. not humans though ...
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> it still exists
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> but different in humans
[21:44] <sami_jess> jenn i agree with you
[21:44] <dave_farber> in humans evolution doesnt exist
[21:44] <dave_farber> Darwinism and evolution are 2 different things
[21:44] <geoff-doloff> YOU ARE WRONG JASON...come on work with me here. if everyone helped everyone else...we wouldn't need SA/TO because people would do the social action and tikun olam fundraising themselves...so that even shows you that survivial of the fittest still exists
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> because there is nothing that preys on us
[21:44] <adina_indy> not as of yet
[21:44] <sami_jess> in humans we have killed the idea of survival of the fittest
[21:44] <geoff-doloff> wrong jason
[21:44] <dave_farber> Darwinism explains wh ycreatures win out over other creatures
[21:44] <Ilana_Rachel> not necessairly..... physically yest
[21:44] <sami_jess> in my opinion, and this is totally imp[ossible and implauysaible
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> ok not everyone helps others, but it's enough that it kills suvival of the fittest
[21:45] <Ilana_Rachel> but mentally it exists
[21:45] <P-Wiz> everyone does good deeds and tzedakah
[21:45] <HagalilCommVP> jason..only becuase he have the biggest intelligence level out of everything else
[21:45] <geoff-doloff> go on an africaion safari and see that nothing preys on us...FURTHERMORE, WE PREY ON OURSELVES (SADLY ENOUGH)
[21:45] <HagalilCommVP> but what if animals got brains..we're screwed
[21:45] <geoff-doloff> No it isn't jason
[21:45] <HagalilCommVP> sadly
[21:45] <dave_farber> geoff ... thats a bad example ...
[21:45] <Jenn_Krueger> That wont happen bc only humans have selem elokim
[21:45] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> survival of the fittest, in humans, doesnt exist because we fight against it so much with technology and medicine and things like that
[21:45] <sami_jess> if there was less technology, there would be more survival of the fittest, and the diseases and bad things would be less.....
[21:45] <geoff-doloff> survival of the fittest occurs even if one and only one animal is still not helping others...which still occurs
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[21:45] <P-Wiz> hey is bazoich michael bassin?
[21:45] <dave_farber> a good example of soemthing higher up on the food chain : bacteria, viruses, insects
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[21:45] <dave_farber> protozoans ... kill us
[21:45] <geoff-doloff> haha sorry dave
[21:46] <Jenn_Krueger> I agree with Emily
[21:46] <Jchal16> hey any1 from koach here?
[21:46] <Leora-Hagalil> hey all i'm out..lailah tov
[21:46] <dave_farber> no prob geoff ...:)
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> surivival of the fittest exists still, but different because we measure success on different levels now
[21:46] <HagalilCommVP> but soon enough we will be smart enough to beat them out
[21:46] <P-Wiz> lalah tov
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[21:46] <HagalilCommVP> lalah tov
[21:46] <Jenn_Krueger> lyla tov Leora
[21:46] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> no it doesnt
[21:46] <dave_farber> hagalil ... we will never be able to beat the monerans ... the bacteria and viruses
[21:46] <dave_farber> ...never ...
[21:46] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> because survial of the fittest is in a natural form....where we exist only thourhg our strengthand adaptability alone
[21:46] <sami_jess> agreed
[21:46] <HagalilCommVP> how can u say that?
[21:46] <Jchal16> any1 from Koach here?
[21:46] <dave_farber> they are stronger ...
[21:46] <dave_farber> they are taking over our niches
[21:46] <P-Wiz> hey before i leave, is anyone doing summer in the city ?
[21:47] <HagalilCommVP> every day we're improving on cures for everything! where du u think our sa/to money is going!
[21:47] <sami_jess> we have killed the idea by comming with so many cures,
[21:47] <dave_farber> they are killing us off ...
[21:47] <HagalilCommVP> mayb not sato but tzedakah!
[21:47] <sami_jess> I TOTALLY AGREE!
[21:47] <dave_farber> AIDS, Ebola, Tuberculosis
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> the fact is that new diseases pop up
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> but we find cures
[21:47] <dave_farber> they all are resistant
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[21:47] <dave_farber> they all are killing us ...
[21:47] <sami_jess> and had they not been treated in the first cases, they woul be gone
[21:47] <sami_jess> might be gone
[21:47] <HagalilCommVP> slowly but surely we are making progress on the war against viruses...they are winning..but we're on a strong come back
[21:47] <dave_farber> Jason we find cures and the disease pops back up ... in resistant form ..
[21:48] <sami_jess> mutations here are playing to our disadvantage.....
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:48] <geoff-doloff> so let's think survival of the fittest doesn't occur--than what is to stop the adept business man from making millions (which allows him to afford better medical treatment that a poorer person), or ruthless politicians to look out for themselves and their rich buddies (not mentioning any names cough cough Bush cough) and leaving the poorer people out to dry...it is way tooooo ideatlistic to believe that survival of the fittest doesn't
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[21:48] <P-Wiz> alright have fun talking about darwinism
[21:48] <sami_jess> thoes viruses are smart.. i should know, i did a gigunda project on them for my human ohys class.....
[21:48] <dave_farber> Hagalil the only way to beat viruses ... is to have them ipe out half of earth's populatio nthen they overextend themselves ... and die out quickly
[21:48] <Jenn_Krueger> I learned a theory that each human is considered like a whole animal species. So, a person dies out, It's as if a whole species dies out. So, maybe survival of the fittest applies to humans as individuals and in it applies to animals in the form of species
[21:48] <P-Wiz> gotta bounce
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[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> surivial of the fittest DOES STILL EXIST, just in differnet form than in animals
[21:48] <Stu_from_CHUSY> yay!
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> haha
[21:48] <Stu_from_CHUSY> stuuuuuuu is here!!
[21:49] <geoff-doloff> naturally jason
[21:49] <HagalilCommVP> its an adaptation for the body to reject the viruses over time...its an instict..if a species is xposed to something for a long enough time they will learn to adapt to it build upa a natural defense system
[21:49] <Stu_from_CHUSY> www.usy.org/chat.asp , right jason??
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> because survival of the fittest is more interms of who is the most ruthless politician, or the most efficient business
[21:49] <dave_farber> hagalil ... but the viruses change too ... and much faster than us ...
[21:49] <geoff-doloff> way to go danny
[21:49] <dave_farber> that's the thing ... who can change faster
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[21:49] <geoff-doloff> (he's from hagalil)
[21:49] <sami_jess> now, survuval of the fittest is in teh economy, success is measured in assets
[21:49] <HagalilCommVP> lol
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> the viruses only change faster because they have a faster generation than us
[21:49] <geoff-doloff> agreed jason...but it still is alive and well
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> what Sami said
[21:50] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 go Sami!
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[21:50] <geoff-doloff> i completely agree. now we are talking sami
[21:50] <HagalilCommVP> but once again..we're slowly but surely coming back to resist them
[21:50] <dave_farber> faster generation???
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:50] <dave_farber> that makes 0 sense to me ...
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> human generations are like 20 years
[21:50] <Stu_from_CHUSY> ok, so where are we?>?
[21:50] <sami_jess> 4no they dont learn to adapt, the ones that have changed survive, that is a common misconception
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> vius generations are like 20 minutes
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> because their generations are faster, they have more mutations
[21:50] <Stu_from_CHUSY> let me just say, that i don't believe that we could have POSSIBLY come from monkeys
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> and can mutate more and adapt more
[21:50] <dave_farber> ic u mean shorter geenrations than us ...
[21:50] <Stu_from_CHUSY> sure, people say that a "day" wasn't a "day"
[21:50] <dave_farber> exaclty thats why they win ...
[21:50] <Stu_from_CHUSY> but, i don't believe it
[21:51] <sami_jess> they dont just change, they trade parts.... thats what makes them so darn tricky
[21:51] <geoff-doloff> well that is your belief stu
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[21:51] <Stu_from_CHUSY> well, who does?
[21:51] <HagalilCommVP> humans dont need to adapt physically...we have the minds to create things to jump ahead of the evolution process...so even though we're physcially slow..our mentallity for building things to help ourselves will adventually go beyong the viruses
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> the idea of evolution isn't htat we came from monkeys, it's that both us and the monkeys had a common ancestor
[21:51] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 sorry for anyone who doesn't care...but the Leaf's are in overtime!
[21:51] <geoff-doloff> The only thing that i don't understand...is that if we came from monkeys...why are there still monkeys?!?!?!?!
[21:51] <Stu_from_CHUSY> agreed, hagalil comm
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> like i said
[21:51] <Stu_from_CHUSY> there is something too, geoff
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> we came from a COMMON ANCESTOR, not from monkeys
[21:51] <dave_farber> geoff ... good questio .. its called SPeciation ...
[21:51] <HagalilCommVP> true
[21:51] <Guest90646> waht's the score tans? but anyways, it's the whole common relationship thing
[21:51] <Jenn_Krueger> so has that common ancestor died out?
[21:51] <HagalilCommVP> lol
[21:51] <Stu_from_CHUSY> and nice, dave
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> the common ancestor died out
[21:52] <geoff-doloff> we don't know jenn
[21:52] <sami_jess> we did NOT come from monkeys... its like a branch, say we came from fred and monjkees ome from fred, but theres no more fred
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[21:52] <geoff-doloff> you sure jason
[21:52] <Stu_from_CHUSY> fred??
[21:52] <sami_jess> bye bye fred
[21:52] <dave_farber> exaclty ...
[21:52] <geoff-doloff> how can you say that
[21:52] <Stu_from_CHUSY> uh oh
[21:52] <dave_farber> well im out ... time for bed ....
[21:52] <HagalilCommVP> say what?
[21:52] <Guest90646> like we do a lot of things the same as monkeys - we scratch our heads, eat bananas...
[21:52] <dave_farber> See ya ...
[21:52] <sami_jess> not really fred... just a name....
[21:52] <HagalilCommVP> bye
[21:52] <geoff-doloff> see ya dave
[21:52] <dave_farber> Adios amigos
[21:52] <Stu_from_CHUSY> oh
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[21:52] <geoff-doloff> tahnks for the discussion
[21:52] <Jenn_Krueger> lyla tov
[21:52] <adina_indy> l'hitraot
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[21:53] <Stu_from_CHUSY> do i get subsidy if i get people to come in, jason>?
[21:53] <adina_indy> just a question.....anyone going on ramah seminar?
[21:53] <geoff-doloff> GUYS YOU ARE INTELLECTUALLY GIFTED...I SALUTE YOU, AND HAVE ENJOYED THIS WITTY REPARTEE OF INTELLECTUAL EXCHANGE. I WISH YOU ALL A COMFY SLEEP AND GOOD DAY
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> thanks
[21:53] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 k...I have a question about 'evolution' (sort of...) if aids came from monkeys, then how did it spread to humans? did a human sleep with a monkey?
[21:53] <Deb_Lyon> hey people
[21:53] <HagalilCommVP> u 2...good night geoff
[21:53] <Deb_Lyon> doh
[21:53] <Stu_from_CHUSY> thanks geoff
[21:53] <Deb_Lyon> it too me about 20 min to sign off
[21:53] <Deb_Lyon> night geoff
[21:53] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i hardly knew thee
[21:53] <sami_jess> it is spread more ways than that......
[21:53] <geoff-doloff> anytime...night everyone
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> it's that the virus mutated so that it could infect humans
[21:53] <HagalilCommVP> good night
[21:53] <garshie_ecrusy> 12 ooh....gotcha
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> humans and monkeys have very alike immune systems
[21:54] <sami_jess> humans and monkees are very similar
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> so it wouldn't take much to mutate to attack us
[21:54] <HagalilCommVP> but humans are just more advanced
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:54] <Jenn_Krueger> Is there any reference in the Torah that we share a common ancestor with monkeys?
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> we have the opposable thumb and all that stuff
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> does it ever mention monkeys at all?
[21:54] <HagalilCommVP> we'll smae w/most mammals..we just happen to xcell in that along w/ a great nervous system
[21:54] <sami_jess> 2not necessarially, depends on how you look at everything
[21:54] <Jenn_Krueger> including mepharshim and midrashim
[21:54] <Sacred_Sacrifice> i think you are talking about 12 monkeys
[21:54] <Stu_from_CHUSY> no, jenn
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[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> mepharshim?
[21:55] <Jenn_Krueger> commentaries
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> ah
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[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> well the torah doesn't explain evolution
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> if it did, then it would REALLY have confused our ancestors
[21:55] <Stu_from_CHUSY> YEAH CHUSY!
[21:55] <sami_jess> 4ok, things dont just, poof happen, things need to build on other things...
[21:55] <Stu_from_CHUSY> correct
[21:55] <HagalilCommVP> brb
[21:55] <Stu_from_CHUSY> there is something called evoltionary time
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[21:56] <Guest90646> i don't know, I just have a big prob with all the mpharshim on things like "if you are on the outside of the universe, 100 million years = 7 days of creation" or however long it is
[21:56] <Jenn_Krueger> yes but it does lay down a foundation that we can interpret
[21:56] <sami_jess> that each day of creation is actually like billions of years?
[21:56] <Stu_from_CHUSY> they measure stuff on evolutionary time, which is RIDICULOYSLY lomng
[21:56] <Guest90646> yeah, have you heard that?
[21:56] <Stu_from_CHUSY> that's what i heard
[21:56] <sami_jess> ya me too
[21:56] <Ilana_Rachel> the torah is "the blue print for life" so some how, it all fits together
[21:56] <Jenn_Krueger> I have heard of that but I do not understand it
[21:57] <sami_jess> 4it is saying that they abreviated each step of evolution, however long it was actually, to one day
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> well the torah is open for interpretation
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> well, evolution didn't happen in distinct steps
[21:57] <Ilana_Rachel> yes... this is true. 70 different interpretaions for each pasook some say
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> ooh, a lot more than that
[21:57] <sami_jess> well... you know what i mean.... each...section of time.. and creatures
[21:57] <Jenn_Krueger> not true according to Rashi Jason
[21:57] <Ilana_Rachel> however, you said interpretation, that doesn't mean it's false
[21:57] <Guest90646> it's kind of like if you were on the edge of the galaxy, 7 days to you would be a heckuva lot longer than the equivalent on earth
[21:57] <Stu_from_CHUSY> why does it have to be evolution, though?
[21:57] <Ilana_Rachel> rashi jason?
[21:57] <sami_jess> um.. i guess so
[21:57] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i mean, maybe it does
[21:57] <Stu_from_CHUSY> first...
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> yeah but if you put it in differnet context you have a new interpretation
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> God created earth
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> and that was good
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> (right?)
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> so you can have an infinite # of interpretations
[21:58] <Ilana_Rachel> right
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> and then He created day/night
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[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> and that was good
[21:58] <Jenn_Krueger> I was commenting on Jason's response
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> (there are 2 "days")
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> 3 - was water animals, right?
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[21:58] <sami_jess> 4ya
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> correct?
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> ok, then 4 was what?
[21:58] <Stu_from_CHUSY> anyone!
[21:58] <sami_jess> 4no 3 was water... 4 was water animals??? ,maybe, i think
[21:58] <adina_indy> 6anyone going to israel this summer IM me at adinashira
[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> oh yeah, heaven and sea
[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> ok, 4 was water animals
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[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> hrm..
[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> this is haaard
[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i dont remember my bereshit
[21:59] <sami_jess> ahhh the horror! ;)
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> well, according to the torah G-d just said for it to be done and it happened..
[21:59] <Stu_from_CHUSY> yes.
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> and then he saw it was good
[21:59] <sami_jess> 4yes...
[22:00] <Stu_from_CHUSY> He is God, afterall
[22:00] <Deb_Lyon> *it was gooood and it was gooood* (sorry that was for ilana... though she's sitting next to me)
[22:00] <Stu_from_CHUSY> so what is the point, jas?
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> but think about it this way
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> could it be that the "night" was a time of extinction?
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> and the day was a time of life?
[22:00] <Stu_from_CHUSY> hrm...
[22:00] <Deb_Lyon> ooooh
[22:00] <Jenn_Krueger> 3 was deshe-vegetation
[22:00] <Ilana_Rachel> thakns dear... i think ill pat you on the back now *pat*
[22:00] <Deb_Lyon> interesante
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> i.e. during the night was a big extinction like the dinosaurs
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[22:00] <sami_jess> 3 4but it wasnt nevcessarially extinction, it wasnt that cut and dry, you know??
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> did he CREATE dinosaurs?
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> it couldn't be
[22:01] <Ilana_Rachel> it could have been
[22:01] <Ilana_Rachel> stu, llooks like we disagree
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> because on the first day, earthe did not become extinct
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> well not neseccarily extinctino but a time when things were changing so that evolutin happened
[22:01] <Ilana_Rachel> why coudlnt' it have been?
[22:01] <sami_jess> 4 the dinos actually "fit" in the animal spectrum
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i know
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> which was day 5
[22:01] <sami_jess> 4 um, animals,
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> birds and land animals right?
[22:01] <sami_jess> 4 then humans,
[22:01] <Stu_from_CHUSY> day 6
[22:01] <sami_jess> 4 man
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> adn then god created rest! the best day
[22:02] <Stu_from_CHUSY> hehe
[22:02] <Jenn_Krueger> well before the 4th day of creation, there was no night bc the moon hadn't been created yet. So, what do you mean by night?
[22:02] <sami_jess> 4 we all love rest
[22:02] <Ilana_Rachel> deb's barking, proof that evolution is occuring as we type!
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[22:02] <sami_jess> 4 it was never night,
[22:02] <sami_jess> 4 it was evening and morning
[22:02] <Deb_Lyon> woof
[22:02] <JulieBlock-Chusy> hey, sry
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> well does one define day by the existence of the moon or by the absence of sun?
[22:02] <Stu_from_CHUSY> YAY CHUSY!!
[22:02] <JulieBlock-Chusy> took me awhile to get in
[22:02] <Stu_from_CHUSY> jason -- it could be either
[22:02] <Deb_Lyon> doesn't judaism say that night is part of the next day
[22:02] <JulieBlock-Chusy> so what are we on right now? hey everyone, whats up?
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> how does the torah define night?
[22:02] <Deb_Lyon> that's why we start holidays with erev
[22:02] <Jenn_Krueger> true
[22:03] <Stu_from_CHUSY> do you say your left foot is your left because it's not your right??
[22:03] <Jenn_Krueger> well the sun wasn't created either so that shouldn't matter
[22:03] <Stu_from_CHUSY> it's all relative.
[22:03] <JulieBlock-Chusy> well, i think (not to jump in a comversation giong before i got here)
[22:03] <sami_jess> 4 to me, day is "section" i cant find the word, but it is the period of creation
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> wasn't the sun the first thing crated?
[22:03] <JulieBlock-Chusy> that it was night before it was day (dark first, then sun)
[22:03] <Guest90646> not exactly...
[22:03] <JulieBlock-Chusy> yeah
[22:03] <JulieBlock-Chusy> so we usually start with night
[22:03] <sami_jess> 4 evening
[22:03] <Jenn_Krueger> no not till the fourth day
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> but night begins at sundown right?
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[22:03] <Jenn_Krueger> right
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> not at moonrise
[22:03] <JulieBlock-Chusy> like, "the shabbos day" begins at sundown
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> so we don't need the moon for night to happen
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[22:04] <sami_jess> 4 right.....
[22:04] <JulieBlock-Chusy> not sunrise, like the aryan calendar
[22:04] <Jenn_Krueger> right. there is no such thing as night. It's eruv-which is when the sun goes down
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[22:04] <sami_jess> 4 because moonrise can be at like 12 or something
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> so in order for there to be a "day" we don't need the moon!
[22:04] <sami_jess> 4 right,
[22:04] <Jenn_Krueger> yes but you need some sort of time period
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[22:04] <sami_jess> 4 and light was created first, it makes it a day??
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> yes yes
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> God created the sun first
[22:04] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> no...Hashem created light first
[22:05] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> the sun was formed later
[22:05] <Jason_Lustig> uh
[22:05] <sami_jess> 4 but what i want to know, is it really a cut and dry day
[22:05] <Jason_Lustig> ok
[22:05] <Jenn_Krueger> no! There was no sun yet and a day is the 24 hour period when the Earth revolves around the sun
[22:05] <Jenn_Krueger> and the sun wasn't created until the fourth dya
[22:05] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> hey all it's rabin...emily marry me =)
[22:05] <sami_jess> 4 a day.... is it really a day, or is it a seperation
[22:05] <Stu_from_CHUSY> WHAT???
[22:05] <JulieBlock-Chusy> haha
[22:05] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> "or" was created (light was created on the first day)
[22:05] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> sun was later
[22:05] <Jason_Lustig> how can you have light without the sun?
[22:05] <Stu_from_CHUSY> doesn't light imply sun?
[22:05] <Jenn_Krueger> I think it's a stage
[22:05] <Stu_from_CHUSY> tjere you go
[22:05] <Jason_Lustig> it's implied that the sun was created
[22:05] <Ilana_Rachel> On a very fundamental level, evolution is a Torah idea. The whole idea that there is a progression to the cosmos, that it is not a static situation—there is plenty to suggest that this was an idea introduced to the world by the Torah. The world was made to get from point A to point B, and everything occurring in between can be seen as part of that progression.
[22:05] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> no light doenst imply the sun
[22:05] <Stu_from_CHUSY> haha jason, we find right
[22:06] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> because....
[22:06] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i mean think together
[22:06] <Ilana_Rachel> But when we talk about Darwin’s concept of origins and the cosmologist’s history of time, there we find some serious points of contention:
[22:06] <Stu_from_CHUSY> or something
[22:06] <sami_jess> 4 progression, thats the word i want
[22:06] <Jenn_Krueger> some say it's a special light-saved for the tzadikim
[22:06] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> this is how judaism and the "big bang" match
[22:06] <JulieBlock-Chusy> ok, josh, i cant look at that without laughing
[22:06] <JulieBlock-Chusy> sry
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[22:06] <sami_jess> 4 a day is a period of progression
[22:06] <JulieBlock-Chusy> anyway, i thought the big bang and judaism match cuz we believe there was more than one world
[22:06] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> if light was created first..it was an explosion of sorts of light....and thus it could have been a big bang
[22:06] <JulieBlock-Chusy> or its the whole, how long was the first day really? theme
[22:06] <Ilana_Rachel> The basic mechanism of both these paradigms is nothing other than chance and mathematics. The story of Genesis in the Torah tells of deliberate action on the part of the Creator. They are entirely materialistic representations of the universe. The Kaballa describes the material universe as only the outer layer of an infinitely deep hierarchy of higher and higher levels of being, with the ultimate source being something that
[22:06] <sami_jess> 4 and the big bang is light... the begining...
[22:06] <Ilana_Rachel> (Ask Moses.com)
[22:06] <Stu_from_CHUSY> hehe.
[22:07] <Jason_Lustig> the point is that the torah says "day"
[22:07] <Stu_from_CHUSY> is that real, ilana?
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[22:07] <sami_jess> 4 wait... wahts 2 again.....land???
[22:07] <Ilana_Rachel> is what real? what i sent?
[22:07] <Stu_from_CHUSY> no, askmoses.com ?
[22:07] <sami_jess> 4 if u think , land somes next, planets, earth,
[22:07] <sami_jess> 4 right???
[22:07] <Ilana_Rachel> absolutely
[22:07] <Jason_Lustig> actually
[22:07] <Deb_Lyon> yes it is
[22:07] <sami_jess> 4 correct me if im wrong
[22:07] <JulieBlock-Chusy> somes ? whats somes?
[22:07] <Jason_Lustig> according to the big bang theory and most scientific proof...
[22:07] <Deb_Lyon> it's a chabad site- they answer questiosn "24/6" heh
[22:07] <HagalilCommVP> askmoses.com is an amazing site
[22:08] <Ilana_Rachel> amen hagalilcomm1
[22:08] <Deb_Lyon> there is alwas a rabbi or other learned person there
[22:08] <JulieBlock-Chusy> ok, anyway
[22:08] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> chabad...who needs chabad when you have usy =)
[22:08] <HagalilCommVP> yup
[22:08] <Deb_Lyon> to answer questions
[22:08] <sami_jess> 4 ooo oooo i got it
[22:08] <Deb_Lyon> lol
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> what happened was that the earth was created out of the rubble that was around the sun when it was formed from another supernova
[22:08] <Stu_from_CHUSY> 24/6 thjat's great!
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[22:08] <Ilana_Rachel> thanks emily :-)
[22:08] <sami_jess> 4 creation is an abreviation of evolution
[22:08] <Stu_from_CHUSY> is that what we say?
[22:08] <Stu_from_CHUSY> i have a project
[22:08] <JulieBlock-Chusy> yeah... but....
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> so then why do so many people have an issue with evolutin?
[22:08] <Stu_from_CHUSY> everyone should interview their rabbi
[22:08] <sami_jess> 4 no, its the universe, not the earth in the big bang, is taht what u are saying jason???
[22:08] <Jason_Lustig> i don't have a rabbi yet :(
[22:08] <Jenn_Krueger> no. It just seems that way if you read the straight pesukim
[22:08] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> it's an issue of PARDES in my opinion
[22:08] <Stu_from_CHUSY> sorry jas
[22:09] <Deb_Lyon> haha, josh wants to marry emily :-)
[22:09] <EmilySowalskyMarryMe> the idea of the literal, the allegorical a