Chat Archive: 4/30/2002

This chat was run on April 30, 2002 from 9 PM EST to 11 PM EST. The topic was cloning.

Session Start: Tue Apr 30 19:53:31 2002
Session Ident: #usychat
[19:53] *** Now talking in #usychat
[19:53] *** ChanServ sets mode: +rtn
[19:54] *** Jason_Lustig changes topic to 'Clonings... ethics of cloning, science of cloning, whether cloning shoudl be banned, and all related topics'
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[19:58] <Stu_EPA> looks like I'm a little early
[19:58] <Jason_Lustig> yeah, a little
[19:58] <Stu_EPA> alright. I'll be back in a little
[19:59] <Jason_Lustig> ok :)
[19:59] <Stu_EPA> btw. Nice job on the website
[19:59] <Jason_Lustig> thanks! :)
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[20:30] <emily_sowalsky> Hi Danielle!
[20:30] <Jason_Lustig> hi!
[20:30] <Danielle> hi :)
[20:30] <emily_sowalsky> Danielle, where are you from?
[20:31] <Danielle> Hagalil! New Jersey, u?
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[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> Dannielle
[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> you may want to change your name to something more recognizable than "guest"
[20:31] <emily_sowalsky> I'm from NERUSY.. from newton, ma
[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> the way to do this is to do the command "/nick yourNewNickName"
[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> without quotes of course
[20:31] <Jason_Lustig> and im from tzafon :)
[20:32] <Guest56150> kool :)
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[20:34] <Hagalil_Dancer> 3hi - it's Danielle again
[20:34] <Jason_Lustig> hi :D
[20:34] <emily_sowalsky> hi it's still emily
[20:34] <emily_sowalsky> Hi Hirsch.. you arent so late after all
[20:34] <Jason_Lustig> why would he be alte?
[20:35] <emily_sowalsky> no reason
[20:35] <Jason_Lustig> ok.....
[20:35] <emily_sowalsky> so i want to clone myself
[20:35] <Jason_Lustig> yeah? sounds cool
[20:35] <emily_sowalsky> thats why i came to this chat
[20:35] <Jason_Lustig> taht means that you dont have to go to school, you can send your clone!
[20:35] <emily_sowalsky> i think that emily sowalskys should run the world
[20:35] <Jason_Lustig> :-D
[20:35] <emily_sowalsky> well i dont go to school anyway
[20:36] <emily_sowalsky> Danielle, would you like a clone?
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[20:36] <emily_sowalsky> hi Pinwheel VP
[20:36] <Jason_Lustig> hi!
[20:36] <PINWHEEL_VP> heya
[20:36] <Jason_Lustig> why don't you introduce yourselF?
[20:36] <emily_sowalsky> would YOU like to be cloned?
[20:36] <Hagalil_Dancer> sure
[20:36] <Jason_Lustig> i wouldn't mind it
[20:36] <PINWHEEL_VP> i'm justin, the Pinwheel VP/IA from CANADA
[20:36] <Jason_Lustig> my army of clones could do all my work for me and i could relax and do nothing all day except play Quake
[20:37] <PINWHEEL_VP> if a clone can do homework, i'm in
[20:37] <Hagalil_Dancer> are any of you guys going to the Israel Parade in New York on sunday?
[20:37] <emily_sowalsky> hey Justin!
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[20:37] <Jason_Lustig> i wish i could but that sunday is my SAT IIs
[20:37] <Jason_Lustig> :(
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[20:37] <PINWHEEL_VP> new yorks too far from CANADA!
[20:37] <Hagalil_Dancer> yea - haha
[20:37] <emily_sowalsky> i would love to! but i have a date with my little sister
[20:37] <Jason_Lustig> you have a siter?
[20:38] <PINWHEEL_VP> or is it a clone?
[20:38] <emily_sowalsky> i'm a big sister in the big brother/big sister program that newton runs
[20:38] <emily_sowalsky> its awesome.. she's 9 years old and the sweetest girl ever
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[20:38] <emily_sowalsky> hehe no not a clone
[20:38] <emily_sowalsky> RUSSO!
[20:38] <Jason_Lustig> though who says that it couldn't be a clone and you're just not telling anyone? ;)
[20:39] <emily_sowalsky> good point there Jason
[20:39] <RussoCHUSY> 4hola!
[20:39] <emily_sowalsky> so Russo, would you like to be cloned?
[20:39] <RussoCHUSY> 5hehe that'd be seriously scary!
[20:39] <PINWHEEL_VP> wheres the rel/ed with the jewish perspective on cloning?
[20:39] <RussoCHUSY> 4LOL
[20:39] <Jason_Lustig> hmmm hes not hear yet
[20:40] <Jason_Lustig> maybe he decided to send his clone instaed of coming himself...
[20:40] <emily_sowalsky> it's ok Hirsch is here..he'll give us a whole dvar about it
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[20:40] <Jason_Lustig> hi!
[20:41] <RussoCHUSY> 4I've heard (not sure if this is correct or not) that judaism does support cloning not of people but of parts for the purpose of pikuah nefesh
[20:41] <emily_sowalsky> yeah, guys could you please tell all your friends who are online to join this chat.. jason's going to email all the usy listserves about it
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[20:41] <Jason_Lustig> well even if it's cloning for parts, you'd get baby-sized parts, not adult-sizde parts
[20:41] <bigberde> yo kids
[20:41] <emily_sowalsky> such as growing organs in dishes?
[20:41] <bigberde> anyone like dave matthews band?
[20:41] <RussoCHUSY> 4hey guys - who are ya'all?
[20:41] <Jason_Lustig> yeah why dodsn't everyone introduce themselves?
[20:41] <emily_sowalsky> i do i do
[20:41] <RussoCHUSY> 4I like knowing people's names when I takl to them :)
[20:42] <emily_sowalsky> i'm emily sowalsky from nerusy
[20:42] <bigberde> 6you going to any shows this year?
[20:42] <RussoCHUSY> i do too!
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[20:42] <bigberde> berde from pinwheel
[20:42] <RussoCHUSY> 4I'm Rebecca Russo from chu chu chusy!
[20:42] <PINWHEEL_VP> i'm justin from Pinwheel
[20:42] <Jason_Lustig> i'm jason lustig from tzafon!!
[20:42] <bigberde> 6sorry, whats our topic?
[20:42] <RussoCHUSY> 4cloning
[20:42] <Jason_Lustig> we're talking about cloning
[20:42] <emily_sowalsky> i went to the one in boston at the fleet center
[20:42] <Hagalil_Dancer> i'm Danielle Abigador from the mighty HAGALIL REGION!!
[20:42] <Jason_Lustig> but how do we know that YOU aren't a clone?
[20:42] <emily_sowalsky> i am a clone
[20:42] <emily_sowalsky> i'll admit it
[20:42] <bigberde> 6is this on tpoic?
[20:42] <RussoCHUSY> 4HAHA
[20:42] <Jason_Lustig> aaaaaaah
[20:43] <emily_sowalsky> i'm meg ryan's clone
[20:43] <Jason_Lustig> emily, how could you do such a thing?!
[20:43] <Jason_Lustig> ;)
[20:43] <emily_sowalsky> hey meggie did it not me
[20:43] <RussoCHUSY> 4good point
[20:44] <emily_sowalsky> i know :)
[20:44] <emily_sowalsky> did you guys know that russo saved my life once... dont worry i'll connect this to cloning
[20:44] <emily_sowalsky> i was at this rally in dc
[20:44] <bigberde> 6is the topic cloning?
[20:44] <RussoCHUSY> 4,hehe
[20:44] <Jason_Lustig> uh oh
[20:45] <RussoCHUSY> 4i'd like to see how this connects to cloning!
[20:45] <emily_sowalsky> and i got dehydrated
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[20:45] <emily_sowalsky> and so she filled a bottle with backwash and i drank it and now i'm alive.. and since im meg's clone, it connects to cloning
[20:45] <RussoCHUSY> 4HAHAHA!
[20:45] <emily_sowalsky> the end
[20:45] <RussoCHUSY> good story emily
[20:45] <emily_sowalsky> hi Starburst!
[20:45] <emily_sowalsky> thanks :)
[20:45] <Jason_Lustig> that's kinda wacky
[20:46] <PINWHEEL_VP> you people in the east need to find water
[20:46] <Starburst2117> Hello everyone!
[20:46] <Jason_Lustig> oh we have lots of it
[20:46] <Jason_Lustig> hi!
[20:46] <RussoCHUSY> 4 Hey em guss what starburst is chusy's new comm vp!
[20:46] *** Retrieving #usychat info...
[20:46] <emily_sowalsky> YAY!!! i love comm vps!
[20:46] <bigberde> 6did you know that there are 3 cloned humans growing right now in 3 mothers in russia and the middle east
[20:46] <Jason_Lustig> are there really?
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[20:46] <Jason_Lustig> do you have a link to a story about that?
[20:46] <PINWHEEL_VP> max is full of this off the wall information
[20:46] <bigberde> i will find it
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> i think thats great
[20:47] <bigberde> 6lets see here
[20:47] <Starburst2117> i love comm VP's too!! :)
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[20:47] <emily_sowalsky> :)
[20:47] <bigberde> 6how do you know i am a comm vp?
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> well so what exactly are the reasons for these clonds?
[20:47] <RussoCHUSY> 4 Ben Balter!!!
[20:47] <emily_sowalsky> so you think cloning's a good thing, jason?
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> no no
[20:47] <xeon2500> Howdy All
[20:47] <Starburst2117> YEAH BEN BALTER!!!!!
[20:47] <RussoCHUSY> 4wow am I the only non-comm vp here?!
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> the messages are in the wrong order
[20:47] <Jason_Lustig> i think so...
[20:47] <PINWHEEL_VP> nah i'm an IA VP
[20:47] <RussoCHUSY> 4haha
[20:47] <xeon2500> Shoot Plantz isn't accepting my password again.. hold on guys... brb
[20:47] <RussoCHUSY> GO IAs!!
[20:47] <emily_sowalsky> you're a comm vp life-saver
[20:48] <RussoCHUSY> 4yeah good point!
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[20:48] <emily_sowalsky> be right back guys...
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[20:48] <Lawrence-CHUSY> Hello.
[20:49] <Lawrence-CHUSY> Hi Hirsh!
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[20:49] <RussoCHUSY> 4Lawre!
[20:49] <Jason_Lustig> ok
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[20:50] <RussoCHUSY> 4hey who
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[20:50] <RussoCHUSY> 4who are you?
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[20:50] <Lawrence-CHUSY> Jase -- your email just went to the CHUSYlist.
[20:50] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> emily...marry me
[20:50] <emily_sowalsky> ok deal :)
[20:50] <emily_sowalsky> but wait
[20:50] <emily_sowalsky> i have to ask you something first
[20:50] <RussoCHUSY> 4who r u?
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[20:50] <emily_sowalsky> are you a clone?
[20:51] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> hehe...well coincidentally rebecca russo wants me greatly (see which one of you guesses correctly first)
[20:51] <RussoCHUSY> 4haha
[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> he's definitely a rabin clone, there is no doubt
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[20:51] <RussoCHUSY> 4JOSH
[20:51] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> i just cant get enough of this =)
[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> ok guys let's get on track
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[20:51] <Jason_Lustig> not everyone knows everyone else, why don't you introduce yourself?
[20:52] <emily_sowalsky> now that our reled's here to balence out all the comminess
[20:52] <Jason_Lustig> what's your name, and what region are you from... and would you want a clone of yourself?
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[20:52] <emily_sowalsky> i'm emily from nerusy and i am meg ryan's clone
[20:52] <Jennay> 12 Jenny from Chusy no it'd be scary to see myself
[20:52] <PINWHEEL_VP> go ROSA
[20:52] <Hagalil_Dancer> Danielle from HAGALIL!!
[20:52] <RussoCHUSY> 4 hey jenny who?
[20:52] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> im josh rabin (formerly chapter prez from seaboard)...now internatioanl rabbi...err reled...and id only clone myself if both emily and rebecca would like it =)
[20:52] <Jennay> 12 schack
[20:52] <smnovick> Steven from Seaboard
[20:52] <Jennay> 12 hi rebecca
[20:52] <Jason_Lustig> i'm jason lustig from none other than tzafon, i wouldn't mind a clone but it'd be freaky
[20:53] <RussoCHUSY> 4hey schack!
[20:53] <samijess> why would you want a clone of yourself.... wouldnt it be strange to raise a child that owuld look just like you.. and be just like you???
[20:53] <emily_sowalsky> josh isnt a playah.. he just crushes a lot. dont be folled
[20:53] <RussoCHUSY> 4ya very true!
[20:53] <PINWHEEL_VP> Josh, is it Kosher to have a clone?
[20:53] <emily_sowalsky> it would be soo scary sam
[20:53] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> hehe....rebecca just wont declare her undying love for me (wink wink)
[20:54] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> so who's the other seaboarder on here...steven novick?
[20:54] <RussoCHUSY> 4,oh yes, my undying love!!
[20:54] <smnovick> yeah
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[20:54] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> and affection rebecca...dont forget affection
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[20:54] <Jlove0230> hey hey everyone
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[20:54] <Jason_Lustig> guys let's talk about what we're here to talk about - cloning
[20:54] <emily_sowalsky> yaels on.. which means josh is in trouble again
[20:54] <Stu_EPA> hi room (and everyone in it)
[20:54] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> im in trouble?
[20:54] <smnovick> you've met me, but I don't know if you remember me josh, I am a freshman and you talk to me every convention
[20:54] <Jlove0230> BBZ!!
[20:55] <RussoCHUSY> 4,seriously I think that if cloning c
[20:55] <smnovick> but never remember me
[20:55] <smnovick> its ok
[20:55] <RussoCHUSY> processes could be used for pikuac
[20:55] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> of course i do....steven novick freshman
[20:55] <RussoCHUSY> *pikuach nefesh
[20:55] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> har tzeon right?
[20:55] <smnovick> beth emeth
[20:55] <samijess> 4so cloning.....
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[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[20:55] <emily_sowalsky> josh, can we clone if it's pikuach nefesh>
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[20:55] <Jason_Lustig> i think that cloning has its purposes
[20:55] <emily_sowalsky> such as
[20:56] <smnovick> a good friend of the Hirsch's
[20:56] <RussoCHUSY> 4 the only thing is, if we start using cloning for certain purposes, like creating organs to save lives, it will get out of hand and be used for other things that are inappropriate and dangerous
[20:56] <Jlove0230> 6,12,12,10,2,11,13,13,12 agreed
[20:56] <samijess> i actually just had a presentation given in my human phys class about cloning and biotechnology.... for some things its ok like making new ograns.. thats ok...
[20:56] <samijess> but people??
[20:56] <Jennay> 12 and in order to get the organs we'd have to wait for the clone to grow up and then kill it to get its organs
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> well i'm afraid that if cloning technology gets to be almost-mainstream then someone might just make a clone army...
[20:56] <rosa_pinwheel> but if yo9u only see the dark in something then you shouldn't go outside
[20:56] <RussoCHUSY> 4 The thing is, its hard to ensure that if ou allow cloning for organs, that it wouldnt get out of control, you know?
[20:56] <Jlove0230> 10but who's to say what the limit is?
[20:56] <Jason_Lustig> well how can we impose a limit?
[20:57] <RussoCHUSY> 4,Well thats the problem
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[20:57] <Jlove0230> 6how can you not??
[20:57] <rosa_pinwheel> there have to be guidelines no?
[20:57] <Jason_Lustig> if cloning technology is developed then anyone can get to it and wreak havoc
[20:57] <Stu_EPA> There are probably better ways to create organs. Wouldn't it be better to just grow them by themselves (I don't know about this technology-wise, but it's good moral-wise)
[20:57] <RussoCHUSY> I dont think that you need to clone a whole person in order to clone a body part
[20:57] <emily_sowalsky> jason, i dont understand your concept of a clone army
[20:57] <PINWHEEL_VP> thats why we elect politicians to waste our money and decide this stuff
[20:57] <Jlove0230> Has anyone ever seen the movie GATTACA?
[20:57] <samijess> well personally, while i am a science geek, i do think that it is not necessary to clone full humans..
[20:57] <smnovick> And genetically, if one person have a hidden gene for a disease and they are cloned one generation after another, and many people do this, then the genetic disease rate will rise
[20:57] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> well i will tell you that in sanhedrin something something (i dont remember the exact citation)...there is proof that judaism approves of stem cell research (which is pretty cool)
[20:57] <emily_sowalsky> GOOD MOVIE yaeli!
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[20:57] <rosa_pinwheel> yea i ve seen gattaca
[20:57] <RussoCHUSY> 4yeah that is cool!
[20:57] <RussoCHUSY> nope whats hte movie abbout?
[20:58] <Jason_Lustig> ive never seen it, why dont you tell us deprived ones?
[20:58] <Jlove0230> in the movie, they use cloning and genetic manipulation to create a scoiety of "PERFECT" people
[20:58] <samijess> like dark angle...
[20:58] <Jlove0230> they use it so that everyone is fit
[20:58] <RussoCHUSY> 4thast crazy
[20:58] <Jennay> 12 how can stem cell research be ok if you are potentially killing a potential person
[20:58] <Jlove0230> so that everyone is brilliant
[20:58] <Jlove0230> so that everyone is "perfect"
[20:58] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4,becauseyou are savinga life
[20:58] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> no
[20:58] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> becuase
[20:58] <Jlove0230> they screen out any differences
[20:58] <Jennay> 12 bu tyou are also killing a life
[20:58] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4 but usually that life wouldnt have been created in hte first place
[20:58] <rosa_pinwheel> how are you killing a life by cloning? its a copy
[20:58] <samijess> yes... agreed
[20:59] <samijess> no stem cell
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> yes but what about when a girl doesn't get pregnant and menstruates? then an egg is dying and a potential life is gone
[20:59] <Jlove0230> which is EXACTLY what "Social Darwinism (aka Nazism) was proposing
[20:59] <samijess> like when they research of a developing fetus...
[20:59] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> because up until a certain number of days, if a women miscarries, then you dont sit shiva...so up until that point it isnt considered a life
[20:59] <Jennay> 12 but you aren't allowed to use controceptives so what's the difference. it's still stopping a life
[20:59] <emily_sowalsky> when does it become a life?
[20:59] <samijess> if it is a danger to the mther.. it is ok to abort
[20:59] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4 in judaism, life doesnt begin at conception
[20:59] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> true
[20:59] <Jason_Lustig> life begins 30 days after the actual birth, i think
[21:00] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4I thought at
[21:00] <RussoCHUSY> 4 brit milah
[21:00] <Jason_Lustig> bc at that point the infant can technically survive on its own
[21:00] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> in israel...you cna have a government-funded abortion from under 18, over 45, and in life-threatening situations...and thats it
[21:00] <samijess> it becomes a life after the first trimester.. i believe... in science terms.. when the placenta is fully developed... not like that means anything
[21:00] <emily_sowalsky> well, better question.. when do you think it becomes a life?
[21:00] <Jason_Lustig> i think that its a life when if it was separated from the mother and it had to survive on its own, it could
[21:00] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4 birth?
[21:00] <Jennay> 12 how are abortions viewed in judaism
[21:00] <rosa_pinwheel> doesnt it become a life when the heart starts beating?
[21:01] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> it's actually not black and white
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[21:01] <Jason_Lustig> well when does judaism define death? i would think that when whatever it is that defines "death" stops, life begins
[21:01] <emily_sowalsky> BRB
[21:01] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> it depends on how you interpret a certain word in the torah...at the moment most people would say its OK...but it's no so clear
[21:01] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4right
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[21:02] <RussoCHUSY> 4 4Hey Jess!
[21:02] <missjess3> hey
[21:02] <Jason_Lustig> so should all cloning research be banned, then?
[21:02] <rosa_pinwheel> 2 well if you can save a life then no
[21:03] <samijess> again.. cloning has to be firther defined... clonng parts. such as organs etcc should be aloud but cloning people.. which to me is unecessary, is not
[21:03] <PINWHEEL_VP> does a kind american wanna let me know what happened with Bush and all his stem cell research issues?
[21:03] <Jason_Lustig> they're not done with the stem cell research issues yte
[21:03] <rosa_pinwheel> 2 isn't he agreeing to fund it though?
[21:03] <Jason_Lustig> they're trying to push a bill through the senate to ban all cloning
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[21:03] <RussoCHUSY> 4the thing is, judaism and
[21:04] <RussoCHUSY> christianity differ greatly in
[21:04] <RussoCHUSY> the idea of when life begins
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[21:04] <Jason_Lustig> well thats the idea of separation of church and state, bc not everyone agrees on these types of religious issues
[21:04] <RussoCHUSY> 4exactly
[21:05] <Stu_EPA> But has Bush blurred the lines by trying to pass this bill?
[21:05] <EmilySowalskyWillYouMarryMe> aight folks ap english is calling me (it's saying hey josh you need to get a 5)...toodles....rebecca...dont hide your feelings =)
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[21:05] <Jlove0230> its difficult, if not impossible, because most people's ethics are based, at least in part, in religion
[21:05] <PINWHEEL_VP> i wonder if there are religions where cloning is looked down upon?
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> so is it the government's place to impose ethics on the peoples?
[21:06] <RussoCHUSY> 4Well clearly there are - thats why Bush is opposed
[21:06] <Stu_EPA> if the people can't impose the ethics on themselves, then yes
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[21:06] <RussoCHUSY> 4not when the ethics are based on a particular religion's beliefs
[21:06] <Jason_Lustig> well maybe they just have a different view on what the correct ethics are
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[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> 4,well then they shouldnt be imposing those ethics upon the people
[21:07] <Jason_Lustig> exactly
[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> 4 is the issue
[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> that bush wants
[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> to ban cloning or
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[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> just not support it
[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> with govt funds
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[21:07] <RussoCHUSY> 4Sorry my computer is majorly screwed up!
[21:07] <samijess> so private funds ar eok??
[21:07] <Stu_EPA> Murder is an ethic based on religion. Should the government ban that?
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[21:07] <PINWHEEL_VP> it could become privatized, and would put a price on a healthy life
[21:08] <RussoCHUSY> 4give me one religion who disagrees that murder is unethical
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> no, the murder laws are based on the idea that killing peole is *bad*, not just unethical
[21:08] <Stu_EPA> well, to some people, genetics is *bad*
[21:08] <samijess> 4its not murder tahts being discussed, its "what IS murder..."
[21:08] <Jason_Lustig> to some people a LOT of things are bad
[21:08] <RussoCHUSY> 4but not to all people?
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[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:09] <Stu_EPA> so, who's to say what things are *bad* and what things are not?
[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> if it's bad to ALL people then it should be bad
[21:09] <samijess> 2who evers in charge
[21:09] <Jason_Lustig> but if it's not bad to ALL people then it shouldnt be banned
[21:09] <RussoCHUSY> 4I agree jason
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[21:10] <Jason_Lustig> ok
[21:10] <Stu_EPA> I'm afraid that I don't agree. If you look around, I'm sure you'll find some people who don't view murder as *bad*
[21:10] <Stu_EPA> so I'll take a stab at defining *bad*
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[21:11] <Stu_EPA> *bad* is anything that affects another person in a way that they don't want to be affected.
[21:11] <RussoCHUSY> 4 But the issue of cloning is clearly an issue based on religion - depending on the definition of when birth starts - there are clear, differnet belief systems that impact deciiosns on that topic
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[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> well the issue of cloning is also about whether it can get out of hand
[21:11] <RussoCHUSY> 4Yes
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> right now it cant because cloning isn't in the position (research-wise) that people can do it efficiently
[21:11] <garshie> I think there should be 3 of me....
[21:11] <Jason_Lustig> because they have to raise all the kids and all that stuff
[21:12] <RussoCHUSY> how can the gov't allow cloning of parts, but keep enough control to stop more things from happening, such as cloning of people ?
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[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> but in the future if they could accelerate the growth of clones to a mature age then things can get ugly
[21:12] <RussoCHUSY> 4yeah
[21:12] <samijess> but agin... why cloning???
[21:12] <Jason_Lustig> why cloning what?
[21:12] <garshie> 12 12there should be 20 of Sam.....clone her!
[21:12] <samijess> what is the point..... another one of you....???
[21:12] <emily_sowalsky> i agree 20 sams
[21:12] <RussoCHUSY> can we clarify - are ya'all talking about cloning or stem cell research?
[21:12] <xeon2600> 01,00You have to also realise, that with cloning, sure you can get 1000's of albert einsteins to solve the world's problems, but you can also get 1000's of hitlers, bin ladens, and others who would cause them all.
[21:13] <RussoCHUSY> 4Yes!
[21:13] <Jennay> 12 good point ben!
[21:13] <emily_sowalsky> but also, many scientists want to clone.. almost like experimenting.. to "see if they can do it"
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> also realize that a bit part of who people become is their upbringing
[21:13] <xeon2600> 01,00So its not really an issue of cloning but an issue of trusting the world population
[21:13] <samijess> and that is not a good idfea....
[21:13] <Jason_Lustig> you might end up with 1000s of albert einsteins but they might all be stupid but just look like einstein
[21:13] <samijess> why do we need to play with science TAHT much.. is it really necessary???
[21:13] <RussoCHUSY> 4I think that it should NOT be done for the sake of doing it, I know that scientists are into that, but it should be only done if the true and pure purpose is to save lives
[21:13] <Koach> 3if it can save lives...yes
[21:13] <emily_sowalsky> do you want to know if we CAN do it?
[21:13] <RussoCHUSY> which I dont think such a pure purpose is realistic
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> well
[21:14] <samijess> 2remember that a person turns out depending on genetics AND their actual life
[21:14] <emily_sowalsky> CAN and SHOULD are very different
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> a big problem is that when people need transplants they cant get them bc there arent enough
[21:14] <xeon2600> 01,00Discovering the unknown, and exploring the beyond are all natural human tendancys
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[21:14] <Stu_EPA> But what if, while researching cloning, a doctor stumbles on the cure for something else?
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> and often when one gets a transplant it gets rejected by your body
[21:14] <samijess> cloning people and cloning tissue are VERY different
[21:14] <Stu_EPA> many discoveries have been made by accident (just look at America)
[21:14] <xeon2600> 01,00However the majority havnt
[21:14] <Jason_Lustig> what if you cloned your body, kinda, to get that specific part that would definitely work with your body?
[21:14] <samijess> cloning tissue is taking a healthy cell froma person and growing new tissue from it
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> is one cell a life?
[21:15] <RussoCHUSY> 4 by doing that, you are disturbing hashem's creation
[21:15] <xeon2600> 01,00Which also raises the issue of weither or not a clone is a person
[21:15] <samijess> you dont need to clone the whole body to get a n organ... you clone the ACTUAL organ
[21:15] <Koach> what about from a religous standpoint. Aren't we required to save a life if we can?
[21:15] <RussoCHUSY> unless its for pikuach nefesh, it shouldnt be done just for experiment
[21:15] <Jason_Goldman> Jason, not is one cell a life, but is one cell going to make a difference in your or someone else life
[21:15] <xeon2600> 01,00Hashem gave us free choice. And part of that is the sanctity of life. THis is the next logical step.
[21:15] <Jason_Lustig> well what if we're trying to figure out whether it can be used for pikuach nefesh?
[21:15] <garshie> 12 but you need to experiment in order to know how to do it when it comes time to actually save lives
[21:16] <samijess> a clone is basically making an embryo withthe same genes as the person being cloned and emplanting it into a woman to grow at the noraml speed ofa child
[21:16] <Jason_Lustig> if you dont experiment you'll never know
[21:16] <xeon2600> 01,00Fine, even if you clone a single organ... is that really an orgin?
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[21:16] <RussoCHUSY> 4good question
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[21:16] <garshie> 12 it'll work like one
[21:16] <samijess> i dont understand the ????
[21:16] <xeon2600> 01,00So do artifical limbs, hearts, kidneys, etc... yet we know they are not reall, BECAUSE THEY ARE MAN MADE.
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[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> ok but they are not made out of real tissue, theyre made out of plasti
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> *plastic
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> a little different...
[21:17] <Lawrence-CHUSY> SOrry, I'm here now.
[21:17] <Stu_EPA> but if plastic works...
[21:17] <xeon2600> 01,00But thats my question is it REAL tissue, is it REAL or is it MAN MADE like everything else
[21:17] <Jason_Lustig> you have to replace them every so often though becaus they're not real
[21:17] <samijess> the ones made of real tissue a wont be rejected by the body and thee people wont have to take the drugs to reduce their immune system
[21:17] <Jason_Goldman> if you lost a lomb, would you care what it was made out of as long as it works and doesnt hurt anyone else?
[21:17] <samijess> not EVERYTHING is made from plastic
[21:17] <samijess> somethings are still in development
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[21:18] <samijess> there are no artificial organs.... yet....
[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> well as i said earlier if you cloned yourself to get an organ, yo'd get an infant-sized organ, not one that fit you
[21:18] <xeon2600> 01,00Can we all agree, that saving somebody's life is a good thing?
[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> you'd have to let the clone grow up in order to get the adult-sized organ
[21:18] <Koach> 3I think one could make a good argument that Cloning interferes with the basic process of procreation itself.
[21:18] <Jason_Lustig> what about in-vitro fertilization then?
[21:18] <Jason_Goldman> by the time they grow up it may have already be replaced, or too late
[21:18] <samijess> you dont have to clone the hwole body.. they can clone a specific part.. i dont know exactly how they do it but they hacve successfully grafted skin...
[21:18] <Koach> this would be against everythign we know and believe in
[21:18] <Stu_EPA> can we interfere with procreation (a potential life) for something already created?
[21:19] <Jason_Lustig> and consider, would life have been created from that egg/sperm anyway?
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[21:19] <samijess> again i am saying.... cloning an organ is SIMPLY MAKING A COPY OF THAT ORGAN.. the entire body of the person is not recreated... G
[21:19] <xeon2600> 01,00Survival of the fitist
[21:19] <samijess> its is dont in a petri dish.. etc...
[21:19] <xeon2600> 01,00Today, no tommrow....
[21:19] <samijess> well since the introdiction of modern medicine, we pretty much killed the idea of survival of the fittest
[21:19] <Koach> 3. Does cloning unduly interfere with the deeply held belief that G-d created the world such that a man and woman would unite to “be fruitful and multiply,” (Genesis 1:28) creating new life together. Or, alternatively, is cloning just another leap forward in the quest for better technology, as the Torah commands in the same verse: “fill the earth and master it”?
[21:20] <RussoCHUSY> 4sorry off topic, but Ben Balter, will you email me your name, phone, address, etc. so I can send in a chalutzim form for you?
[21:20] <xeon2600> 01,00No, survival of the fitest exsist more then ever.... Be it money, be it technology, be it whatever. Darwinism
[21:20] <Koach> This was a questiona sked in 3a lecture I attended
[21:20] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> can they not try and fiugre out a way to make artificial sperm/egg to use for cloning?
[21:20] <samijess> but ntot natural
[21:20] <xeon2600> 01,00OF couse
[21:20] <RussoCHUSY> 4thanks!
[21:20] <xeon2600> 01,00Do you have aim?
[21:20] <RussoCHUSY> 4yes
[21:20] <xeon2600> 01,00hold on
[21:20] <samijess> me??
[21:21] <Jason_Lustig> i suppose that they could extract some DNA and then put it into fake sperm/eggs...
[21:21] <emily_sowalsky> be right back
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[21:21] <RussoCHUSY> but email it, it will be easier
[21:21] <Stu_EPA> but the DNA would be real
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[21:21] <Jason_Lustig> no they would copy the DNA and then put the copy into the fake sperm/eggs
[21:21] <Om-Dawg> whats up usy
[21:21] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> so then they should make the sperm/egg so that they wont remove any chances of future life
[21:21] <RussoCHUSY> 4Ben - can u just email it?
[21:21] <samijess> what>??
[21:21] <RussoCHUSY> 4I dont have the forms wiht me right now :)
[21:21] <RussoCHUSY> thanks a ton!
[21:21] <Om-Dawg> SO WHATS THE CHATT ABOUT
[21:21] <RussoCHUSY> 4cloning
[21:22] <xeon2600> 01,00Cloniing
[21:22] <Om-Dawg> ah...
[21:22] <Jason_Lustig> and all things about cloning
[21:22] <Om-Dawg> so what do people think so far?
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[21:22] <samijess> to clone they take the DNA from a mamary cell and put into an egg that has had the DNA removed.. resulting in a fertilized egge with all the DNA in the original cell
[21:22] <RussoCHUSY> 4Ok
[21:23] <emily_sowalsky> sami's going to be a doctor
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> i can see that..
[21:23] <Om-Dawg> So what do people think is wrong with it?
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> they think it's evil
[21:23] <emily_sowalsky> i think it's evil
[21:23] <xeon2600> 01,00I think it is being frutfull and multiplying. Jewdism has an underlieing key value of sanctity of life. Cloning organs, is just the next logical step.
[21:23] <samijess> no not a dr...
[21:23] <Jason_Lustig> but emily since yuo're a clone you're saying YOU're evil...
[21:23] <emily_sowalsky> no no meg's evil
[21:23] <samijess> sami thinks genetics is the coolest thing since glow inthe dark
[21:23] <emily_sowalsky> i'm her victim
[21:23] <Koach> 3Pope John Paul II lay down moral guidelines for medical research in the 21st century, endorsing organ donation and adult stem cell study but condemning human cloning and embryo experiments.
[21:23] <AllyBazarskySWUSY> but the reseach can end up saving lives and help find cures to things
[21:24] <xeon2600> 01,00Whats wrong with protecting life?
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[21:24] <Stu_EPA> it's wrong if you kill another life
[21:24] <xeon2600> 01,00When do you kill another life?
[21:24] <Jason_Lustig> but are you protecting a life or killing one in the process as well?
[21:24] <samijess> again.... making organs will reduce the risk of bodies rejecting the organ
[21:24] <Jason_Lustig> well, killing potential life
[21:24] <RussoCHUSY> 4,But that potential life would have never been a life
[21:24] <Om-Dawg> i think its more fun to have sex
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[21:25] <samijess> and it doesnt kill a life becasue it is taking cells from a healthy part of the body.. not a whole being
[21:25] <samijess> lol
[21:25] <xeon2600> 01,00Does jewdism have a rule aganst birth control (condoms or pills) that would be stoping potential life
[21:25] <Koach> 3To compensate for the impermanence of flesh, the Pharaohs built pyramids, the Emperors built Rome, and Donald Trump built skyscrapers. To some, cloning is a way to manufacture a living monument by leaving a genetic copy of oneself; a way to achieve "immortality" long after one is gone
[21:25] <Koach> -Rabbi SHraga Simmons
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[21:26] <Om-Dawg> i think we could clone organs to help people
[21:26] <Om-Dawg> but cloning to prolong life is wrong
[21:26] <emily_sowalsky> what organs? how? for whom?
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[21:26] <Om-Dawg> people who need them
[21:26] <emily_sowalsky> for what?
[21:26] <samijess> y is it wrong???
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> well it's not really prolonging life
[21:26] <Om-Dawg> lets say you need a kidney transplant but no kidney suitable is available
[21:26] <emily_sowalsky> anyone who wants a new one?
[21:26] <Jason_Lustig> it's more of just creating a copy of you to go into the future...
[21:26] <samijess> so isnt a transplant..
[21:26] <RussoCHUSY> 5isnt the purpose to save lives and prolongue them if we can?
[21:26] <samijess> it would have a higher success rate......
[21:27] <Koach> 3Every human being is created in the image of G-d. Therefore G-d is our role model. As the Talmud (Shabbos 133b) says, "Just as He is Merciful, so you be merciful; and just as He is Kind, so you be kind." Becoming more G-dly is the greatest level a human being can achieve. In this way, Judaism already has a concept of cloning: we try to clone ourselves after the Al-mighty!
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[21:27] <xeon2600> 01,00We then also run into the issue of inequality because the cloning will HAVE to be expensive
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[21:27] <emily_sowalsky> Hi Jennifer
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> well what about all other things expensive?
[21:27] <Om-Dawg> ya but we dont want to keep making people the same and have like armies
[21:27] <samijess> yes... but so is invitro fertilization and families who want that bad enough will pay for it
[21:27] *** xeon2600 is now known as Ben_Balter
[21:27] <samijess> again... cloning people./... bad.. cloning PARTS..... benificial
[21:27] <Jason_Lustig> well clone armies are another issue...
[21:27] <Om-Dawg> yes
[21:27] <Jennifer_Krueger> Shalom ubracha!
[21:27] <Om-Dawg> so we done
[21:28] <Jason_Lustig> cloning armies actually solves a lot of problems of conventional armies
[21:28] <Om-Dawg> bedtime
[21:28] <Om-Dawg> yomom balaila
[21:28] <samijess> like dark angle???
[21:28] <RussoCHUSY> 4It's better to have expensive cloning that will help some people than having nothing at all
[21:28] <garshie> 12 nitey nite
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[21:28] <emily_sowalsky> hey on the count of 3, everyone IM every USYer on your buddylist with the link to this chat and tell them to join
[21:28] <emily_sowalsky> 1
[21:28] <emily_sowalsky> 2
[21:29] <emily_sowalsky> 3
[21:29] <emily_sowalsky> now!!
[21:29] * Jason_Lustig goes and IMs someone like everyone else should be doing
[21:29] <samijess> whats the link???
[21:29] <Jason_Lustig> http://chat.usy.org/
[21:29] <Ben_Balter> 01,00chat.usy.org
[21:29] * JasonGoldmanNERUSY does it 2
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[21:30] <aaaaa> lawrence you are hot
[21:30] * Ben_Balter aggress
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[21:30] <RussoCHUSY> 4aaaaa who are ya?
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[21:30] <Jason_Lustig> ok hi guys!
[21:30] <Alex_Helfand> hey everyone
[21:30] <aaaaa> john paul II
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[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> so if the US army started cloning people rather than recruiting people, what would you think?
[21:31] <samijess> it would be bad......
[21:31] <Noah_Mencow> that woul be terrible
[21:31] <squeek> that would be the same thing as before...
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> but then regular people wouldn't be getting killed!
[21:31] <Jason_Lustig> now you wouldn't have to worry about being drafted or anything...
[21:31] <samijess> yes.. clones ARE regular people
[21:31] <squeek> but the people they clone are real people...
[21:31] <aaaaa> but how does one define regular people
[21:32] <Ben_Balter> 01,00aaaaa is somebody in teh CHUSY area, and has a cable modem, I can tell you that much.
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[21:32] <RussoCHUSY> 4dan goodman
[21:32] <Jason_Lustig> i mean regular people = not clones
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[21:32] <Josh_sowalsky> they would probably rebel or object....hasn't anyone seen bicentenial man?
[21:32] <samijess> or dark angle???
[21:32] <aaaaa> aaaaaaaaaaaa
[21:32] <aaaaa> peace out
[21:32] <RussoCHUSY> 4Anyhow, homework is calling me! I'll talk to all of you later
[21:32] <squeek> they are still gonna have emotions and all that stuff
[21:32] <Jason_Lustig> why don't you tell the people who haven't seen it what it's about?
[21:32] <aaaaa> i love you lawrence
[21:32] <emily_sowalsky> how about multiplicity
[21:32] <Alex_Helfand> often we forget that sacrifice is what makes what we do meaningful
[21:32] <aaaaa> you are so sexy
[21:32] <emily_sowalsky> bye russo
[21:33] <Jason_Lustig> bye everyone who[s leaving :(
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[21:33] <Jason_Lustig> but what is the sacrifice?
[21:33] <Josh_sowalsky> anyway, the movie's about a robot who magically has feelings and emotions
[21:33] <Josh_sowalsky> and in a way is like a clone
[21:33] <Jason_Lustig> like pinocchio?
[21:33] *** Benjamin-CHUSY is now known as LawrenceJR-CHUSY
[21:33] <RussoCHUSY> bbye all
[21:33] <Josh_sowalsky> no
[21:33] <LawrenceJR-CHUSY> 01,00Bye
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[21:33] <emily_sowalsky> so if clones are real people...
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[21:33] <LUSY-NERUSYchapteroftheyear> hey josh
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[21:33] <Boogers> yoyoy wasabie
[21:33] <emily_sowalsky> then can we put real people's organs into other people?
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[21:33] <Deb_Shain> 6 heyy
[21:33] <Josh_sowalsky> yes
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> of course
[21:34] <LUSY-NERUSYchapteroftheyear> hey
[21:34] <LUSY-NERUSYchapteroftheyear> juliemina
[21:34] <Josh_sowalsky> emmie, do u object?
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> we put real peoples organs into other peopls all the time, organ transplants
[21:34] <squeek> once they are dead
[21:34] *** LawrenceJR-CHUSY is now known as Ben-CHUSY
[21:34] <emily_sowalsky> once they've agreed to it..
[21:34] <Jason_Lustig> well some people donate their organs after they die...
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[21:34] <Josh_sowalsky> can we clone organs without making a complete himan?
[21:34] <squeek> yeah
[21:34] <samijess> yes..... making new ones from your own live cells.. whats the differenc??/
[21:35] <samijess> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:35] <Guest84691> lots
[21:35] <samijess> for the 217840931x time
[21:35] <Guest84691> but you got to make oragans when yourborn
[21:35] <MelissaFromPinwheel> yes..........4
[21:35] <samijess> you do not need the howle body to make an organ!!!!
[21:35] <Guest84691> other wise they won't be the same as yorus
[21:35] <MelissaFromPinwheel> !!!
[21:35] <Josh_sowalsky> so its fine
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> well then why aren't there organ factories now if it's so easy?
[21:35] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4Tania!
[21:35] <Guest84691> its har
[21:35] <Guest84691> dd
[21:35] <squeek> is expensive, and its not really that easy
[21:35] <Josh_sowalsky> people still object to it
[21:35] <Josh_sowalsky> including bush
[21:35] <Jason_Lustig> but you're not cloning people
[21:36] <samijess> but it is being reesearched.. if it IS perfected.. it can be amaxing
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> yes
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> but bush wants to stop that research...
[21:36] <Josh_sowalsky> so whats the porblem?
[21:36] <Guest84691> 3 3its just organs and it has to be done at birth
[21:36] <emily_sowalsky> does the words "organ factory" scare anyone else here besides me?
[21:36] <Guest84691> 3 sothat theorcans age with you
[21:36] <samijess> no they dont
[21:36] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,00No, it puts me at ease
[21:36] <Jason_Lustig> it would make me happy if everyone who needed a transplant could get one
[21:36] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,00Does the word Medicine factory scare you?
[21:36] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> when u say it that way Emily... yes
[21:36] <samijess> you can "manufacture" ,ature organs... they can do it
[21:36] <Josh_sowalsky> So why would people object?
[21:37] <Guest84691> 3 it cost a lot of money tho
[21:37] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4Think about how many lives a so-called "organ-factory" could save
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> because they are really really conservative
[21:37] <samijess> so do most medical procedrues
[21:37] <emily_sowalsky> it sounds so unnatural
[21:37] <Alex_Helfand> what president bush wants to stop or prevent is abortion/or creation of fetuses solely for the purposes of manufacturing organs
[21:37] <samijess> so is invitro fertilization...
[21:37] <squeek> 4 i ahte to sound mean... but the world is overpopulated anyway
[21:37] <samijess> so is some surgery...
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[21:37] <samijess> so are transplants..
[21:37] <Jason_Lustig> well the best transplanting organs would come from your own body -- then they wouldn't be rejected at all
[21:37] <samijess> but that has never stopped us
[21:37] <samijess> yes.. exactly
[21:37] <Alex_Helfand> basically aborting fetuses to create stem cells that can be used for many different things
[21:37] <samijess> no.. not for organs....
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[21:38] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4We had a speaker about this @ ic
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> well do you really need to abort fetusess to craete stem cells, do you?
[21:38] <Josh_sowalsky> i knew I shouldn't have skipped everything
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> lol @ josh
[21:38] <emily_sowalsky> josh!!
[21:38] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012Every other animal adapts to it enviornment. Humans adapt their inviornment to fit their needs. This is the next step.
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[21:38] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012The other issue, is what about cloning organs for animals?
[21:38] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4You need embryos, right?
[21:38] <Josh_sowalsky> y would u want to
[21:38] <Jason_Lustig> for sick animals who need transplants
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[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> just like humans...
[21:39] <samijess> embryos for cloning full beings
[21:39] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012As Jews, don't we have a responsibility to help animals and repar the world
[21:39] <emily_sowalsky> sure why not
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[21:39] <emily_sowalsky> but would people spend the money for animals to have such transplants?
[21:39] <Jason_Lustig> well which is more important-- helping people or supposedly killing possible life?
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> people who love their pets a TON, yes
[21:40] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4Ohhh... as far as I know using embryonic cells to produce stem cells is ok in Judaism, as long as a baby is not aborted for that sole purpose
[21:40] <samijess> yes
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> there are som epeople who are really wacky about their dogs and stuff
[21:40] <Josh_sowalsky> I thought of something my science teacher talked about.........Have you guys heard of the REALLY exspencive service where you send your cat to them, they send it back, and when it dies, u get it back???
[21:40] <squeek> then you could abort the baby for food also
[21:40] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> yes, heard it
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> thta's really really wacky
[21:40] <Josh_sowalsky> what do u think of that
[21:40] <Jason_Lustig> wow...
[21:40] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012Is it worth protecting a *POTENTIONAL* so that somebody else can die?
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[21:40] <Josh_sowalsky> kinda cool though if u think about it
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> well, my cousin used to have a dog
[21:41] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> some family had a dog, very healthy, young, but they liked it so much, when they perfect cloning, they already have the first one
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> and the dog died
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> he looked around for the exact copy of it
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> and, since he lived in NYC, he was able to find one who looked exactly like his old dog
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[21:41] <samijess> looked like but wasnt
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> and he got the dog, but unfortunately there were giant pictures of his old dog on the walls
[21:41] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4(to ben) Yes, because that POTENTIAL is just that. The population would explode
[21:41] <Josh_sowalsky> they could just save alot of effort, get it stuffed and sit it outside on their lawn
[21:41] <Jason_Lustig> and the dog went schitzoid
[21:41] <squeek> which is what I just said...
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[21:42] <samijess> see... there is already an overproulation of so many animals....
[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> isn't there an overpopulation of humans?
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[21:42] <Jason_Lustig> by that logic we should go and exterminate a few billion humans to make some more room
[21:42] <phisy_usyer> what up peeps
[21:42] <Josh_sowalsky> as much fun as this is, I really have to get to work, sorry guys
[21:42] <Josh_sowalsky> bye
[21:42] <garshie> 12 bye!
[21:42] <squeek> yeah there is an overpopulation because of governments
[21:42] <samijess> yes... there is, but because people ahve ethics... they weant to save everyone.....and thus it is almost imposible to help that...
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[21:42] <garshie> 12 Sam, stop being smart...
[21:42] <phisy_usyer> any chusyers in here
[21:42] <samijess> every so often there are natural disasters that reduce numbers.. but it is always devistating
[21:43] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012ME is from CHUSY
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[21:43] <emily_sowalsky> sam's a tree hugger
[21:43] <samijess> sorry this is jsutstukff i know a lot about
[21:43] <garshie> 12 Sam's awesome tho...so it's all good
[21:43] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4And so essentially isn't the whole concept of cloning/stem cells just going to through population numbers out of whack?
[21:43] <samijess> no.. dumpster diver
[21:43] <squeek> governemtns keep too many people alive who should ahve probably dided a while ago
[21:43] <samijess> get it right em!
[21:43] <emily_sowalsky> :)
[21:43] <phisy_usyer> ben...? balter
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> and that screws up evolution a ton...
[21:43] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012Depends who's asking....
[21:43] <samijess> yes.... yes it does...
[21:43] <phisy_usyer> dan goodman
[21:43] <Jason_Lustig> and so then the gene pool gets corrupted and we all DIE! ;)
[21:43] <ben_boogers> i say the governmetn is lieing
[21:44] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4But how do you stop technology from advancing?
[21:44] <samijess> ergo... there is no ability of survival of the fittest.. becase the not so fit are helped
[21:44] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012Yeah, Ben Balter
[21:44] <samijess> you dont....
[21:44] <Schwoty> So, Jason, should we kill the weak people?
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> no
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> i never said that
[21:44] <emily_sowalsky> just the dumpster divers
[21:44] <squeek> no
[21:44] <ben_boogers> then who dies
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> i was just following the train of an argument
[21:44] <squeek> people who cant survive die on their own
[21:44] <samijess> the thing is that becasuse of human ethics... the fact of survival of the fittest as become a moot point
[21:44] <Jason_Lustig> not with recent medicine
[21:44] <samijess> hey
[21:44] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> survival of the fittest may work for wildlife, but not for us, every life is important
[21:44] <squeek> till eventually they are out of the gene pool
[21:44] <phisy_usyer> any phishheads n here
[21:45] <squeek> but thats like saying we are better than animals
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> the planes of competition have changed from looking for food and a mate to how good you are at making a profit
[21:45] <ben_boogers> animals are people too
[21:45] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> we are
[21:45] <samijess> every life is important because tahts what was decided......i hate to be contradictory but arent all lives important
[21:45] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> not totally... we are dominant
[21:45] <ben_boogers> like smart inteligent monkeys
[21:45] <Jason_Lustig> well do they have emotions?
[21:45] <emily_sowalsky> melissa--do you think that because of ethics, scietists should stop pushing this technology
[21:45] <samijess> we can talk.. we live everyone else can die as they please
[21:45] <ben_boogers> yes
[21:46] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> they can tell when they are hurt, so i say yes
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[21:46] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4Exactly Emily....
[21:46] <samijess> however, we are the ones with cancers that are passed down.. etc
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> as a wise man once said, the ability to talk does NOT make you intelligent
[21:46] <Schwoty> True
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[21:46] <MelissaFromPinwheel> 4That's what I don't know - how can you balance ethics and technology?
[21:46] <samijess> yes... i know.. i was rebutting jason g
[21:46] <samijess> there is no way to...
[21:46] <ben_boogers> the ebility to not talk maeks you smart
[21:46] <samijess> its way past that
[21:46] <Jason_Lustig> what ben said!
[21:46] <ben_boogers> YAY
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[21:47] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> right, if u dont need to talk, u have better ways of communicating
[21:47] <squeek> like mooing
[21:47] <ben_boogers> exatlly
[21:47] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> hopefully...
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[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> and if you can keep your mouth shut then that shows that you can be discrete
[21:47] <samijess> oops
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[21:47] <garshie> 12 Bernie!
[21:47] <ben_boogers> and kepp secrets(something the governmetn seems to be bad at)
[21:47] <Jason_Lustig> no i think they're very good at that
[21:47] <squeek> chaluppa
[21:48] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> yum...
[21:48] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012Are you kidding.... you know how much the government keeps from us!?>!?!?!?
[21:48] <jeff_bernstein> hey guys, i just wanted to drop in for a few minutes and check out whats cookin
[21:48] <ben_boogers> and animals can tlak tho, they jsut have a differnt language
[21:48] <samijess> a LOT!!!
[21:48] <squeek> yeah why does the government say " we are going to war with Iraq in a few months....when we are ready"
[21:48] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012for "matters of national security"
[21:48] <squeek> you shouldnt say that
[21:48] <ben_boogers> i know the government is always lieng
[21:48] <jeff_bernstein> jason, i know you're gonna hate me
[21:48] <ben_boogers> but the truth alwys comes up and someone gets killed
[21:48] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012THe government didn't.
[21:48] <samijess> people in govt services sign away their rights for life
[21:48] <jeff_bernstein> but.....
[21:48] <Jason_Lustig> yeah?
[21:49] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012It said, that the United states will pursue terror to the furthest, right now, there biggist concern is IRAW
[21:49] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012*iraq
[21:49] <samijess> 4so... cloning....lol
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> yeah
[21:49] <jeff_bernstein> as much as the Blue Jays completely suck, the Leafs are by far going to win the Stanley Cup (what what romping the Isles... what what)
[21:49] <squeek> id rather they stop televising their every move though
[21:49] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> lol
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> hey!
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> the bills are coming back this year! we have bledsoe!
[21:49] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> brb everyone
[21:49] <garshie> 12 GO LEAFS GO!!
[21:49] *** JasonGoldmanNERUSY is now known as JasonGoldmanNERUSYbrb
[21:49] <Ben-CHUSY> 01,0012You see the reason they are doing this is so the BUSH can get a better aproval rating and so that the people will be patriotic, buy flags, and turn around the economy. Its basically a media war rally.
[21:49] <samijess> CLONING!!!! NOT SPORTS!!!!!
[21:49] <ben_boogers> bledsoe is going down brady rules
[21:49] <emily_sowalsky> how about cloning our sports idols?
[21:49] <garshie> 12 Sam...shh....
[21:49] <MelissaFromPinwheel> .3Don't even talk about hockey. (Yay Vancouver!)
[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> aaaah
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[21:49] <Jason_Lustig> that wold be HORRIble
[21:50] <squeek> but its like telling the enemy our plan
[21:50] <garshie> 12 vancouver's out, mel!
[21:50] <ben_boogers> eyah emily nice idea
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> emily that idea is really scarry
[21:50] <emily_sowalsky> but brady's so cute
[21:50] <jeff_bernstein> i know im sorry.... just for the record.... Leafs take series with a 4-2 win over the Isles... thats enough tangents from me!
[21:50] <samijess> OH ya
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[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> hi jesus
[21:50] <Jason_Lustig> what's your take on cloning?
[21:50] <garshie> 12 ya JC!
[21:50] <samijess> lol
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[21:50] <ben_boogers> ah its a priest
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[21:51] <squeek> yay its jesus
[21:51] <ben_boogers> wow it got qyuit
[21:51] <jesus> i like god
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[21:51] <ben_boogers> jesus rules i wanna be jus like him
[21:51] <Schwoty> Why?
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[21:51] <Guest39457> damnit!
[21:51] <ben_boogers> i donno
[21:51] <samijess> so, organ transplants....
[21:51] <samijess> survival of the fittest
[21:51] <ben_boogers> he got a nice hiar thinkg going
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> haha jesus lost his name
[21:51] <emily_sowalsky> no.. what if someone cloned jesus
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> they couldn't
[21:51] <Jason_Lustig> theyd need his cells
[21:52] <Guest39457> id kill him again
[21:52] <ben_boogers> dig up his body
[21:52] <ben_boogers> adn take the cells of his bones
[21:52] <ben_boogers> not hta hard
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> but if someone did then it wouldnt be the same guy
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[21:52] <Schwoty> Would that be the second coming?
[21:52] <Guest39457> he was ressurected, they cant find the bosy, duh
[21:52] <samijess> if theknew where it was........it would be to hard to actually get there
[21:52] <garshie> 12 hey jmo!
[21:52] <squeek> if someone cloned jesus....it would be biblical
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> bc like i said the persons upbringing effects them the most
[21:52] <squeek> hahaha bad pun
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> and so it wouldnt be the real JC
[21:52] <Jason_Lustig> only a faker
[21:52] <emily_sowalsky> squeek you're brilliant
[21:52] <squeek> if only I was....
[21:53] <ben_boogers> it wouold be a fake
[21:53] <ben_boogers> adn all teh priest would love him
[21:53] <ben_boogers> adn he would turn gothic and be liek screw you
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[21:53] <ben_boogers> and they would be lie
[21:53] <squeek> the 2 1/2 over ride passed??
[21:53] <ben_boogers> oh no what ahve we done
[21:53] <Jason_Lustig> lol @ ben
[21:53] <emily_sowalsky> yeah
[21:53] <squeek> yes!
[21:53] <ben_boogers> yay laugh at me not with me
[21:53] <emily_sowalsky> so about cloning
[21:53] <samijess> ok since this convo is going no where, i must go finish HW.. so long... if anyone has anything that they think would interest me, email me at sam_i_am921@hotmail.com night!!!
[21:53] <Ilana_Lyon> riiight
[21:53] <Ilana_Lyon> heeh
[21:54] <garshie> 12 Sam, nite! read the article!
[21:54] <samijess> will do
[21:54] <squeek> i think cloning can be good like to save lives
[21:54] <emily_sowalsky> bye sami
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[21:54] <squeek> but it seems like lives dont need saving
[21:54] <squeek> cause theres too many people in the world
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> i think it can be good but like all things it can be abused
[21:54] <Schwoty> Why not?
[21:54] <Ilana_Lyon> but is it really saving a life or playing Hashem?
[21:54] <squeek> with awful awful genes
[21:54] <Jason_Lustig> well...
[21:54] <emily_sowalsky> what do you think Ilana?
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[21:54] <squeek> and they jsut go around having babies and making our gene pool even
[21:54] <Ilana_Lyon> well.. "as teh good book says..."
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[21:55] <Ilana_Lyon> actually, I cant quote a pasook but it just seems a little wrong to me... to make a copy of someone
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> well by having children is someone playing god?
[21:55] <squeek> worse
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> simply by procreating
[21:55] <Ilana_Lyon> no but G-d planned for that.... ya know.. sex?
[21:55] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> no, its natural
[21:55] <squeek> well its not an exact copy of a person
[21:55] <ben_boogers> they would screw up a dn the cloens would ruel the world and then ther ewould be no more sex, adn that would be the end of everythingi stand for
[21:55] <Ilana_Lyon> ben, that was very amusing
[21:55] <Jason_Lustig> well then we'd end up ina "brave new world" type of place
[21:55] <Guest39457> i wanna clone myself, then shoot it so everythinks im dead
[21:55] <squeek> cloneing is not going to bring about the demise of sex
[21:55] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> humans were created for sex, that is humans goal, to continue life
[21:55] <Guest39457> ill bet itd be cool to watch me die too
[21:55] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> the problem with clones is that there is no differentiation
[21:56] <Schwoty> So?
[21:56] <Jason_Lustig> someone could clone Bush, kidnap the real one and put a faker into office
[21:56] <squeek> random promiscious sex will never end, as long as USY is around
[21:56] <Ilana_Lyon> "to be fruitful and multiply", is that not correct?
[21:56] <ben_boogers> ok then if i can still have sex i don't care lets clone hte world, i'm stil happy
[21:56] <Guest39457> what if all clones were required to have a second penis on their forehead
[21:56] <squeek> j/k
[21:56] <CRUSYWiz> be fruit ful and multiply with "real" people
[21:56] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> differentiation is the key to evolution
[21:56] <squeek> lol
[21:56] <ben_boogers> the greatest mitzah ever is having sex ont he sabath
[21:56] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> but if we clone, and have sex, we'll overpopulate
[21:56] <Ilana_Lyon> evolution? that's a whole nother discusscion
[21:56] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> without evolution, we die out
[21:56] <CRUSYWiz> only having sex on shabbous if married
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[21:57] <CRUSYWiz> there is a catch to everything
[21:57] <Ilana_Lyon> evolution, and addapted characteristics
[21:57] <Ilana_Lyon> or else, by having sex, you're married
[21:57] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> a catch to everything, even sex
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> ah, a catch-22
[21:57] <Ilana_Lyon> (plus chupa(obj of value) and ketuvah)
[21:57] <CRUSYWiz> good book
[21:57] <ben_boogers> i donn wanna be maried yet, i'm only 15, and i thinks its stilla great mitzah
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[21:57] <ben_boogers> catch-22 great badn
[21:57] <Jason_Lustig> well there's a catch to cloning
[21:57] <Ilana_Lyon> theres no doubt it s a great mitzvah but it's not meant for those not married
[21:57] <squeek> well the bible said that a loooong time ago, so I think it need some revision on the sex on shabbat thing
[21:58] <Ilana_Lyon> G-dforbid someoen's raped, etc
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[21:58] <Ilana_Lyon> Torah cant be revised
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> the torah can't be revised perssay
[21:58] <Ilana_Lyon> (another discussion as well)
[21:58] <Jason_Lustig> but the interpretation of the torah can
[21:58] <Guest39457> hey, lets not be extremist here
[21:58] <ben_boogers> it never said rape was good
[21:58] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> but the USCJ can revise thre rules
[21:58] <ben_boogers> it said rape was bad
[21:58] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> i agree with Jason L
[21:58] <squeek> well it should be
[21:58] <CRUSYWiz> lets just get down to it, do you really think that hashem wanted all of us to be cloned?
[21:58] <Schwoty> No.
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> from the earth return to the earth
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> no way
[21:59] <BigNides> im sure he wouldnt mind
[21:59] <Guest39457> absolutely
[21:59] <ben_boogers> Cloning bad, takes teh point of sex away
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> granted eve came from adams rib
[21:59] <Guest39457> to be liek the dust
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> but she wasn't cloned
[21:59] <squeek> no ti doesnt
[21:59] <squeek> you still have sex
[21:59] <Jason_Lustig> well what about married couples that can't have kids naturally for one reason or another?
[21:59] <BigNides> hey, sex is great, it doesnt need a point!
[21:59] <JasonGoldmanNERUSY> just so no one has to worry about having 2 Jason's, now im Steve Goldman from NERUSY, Steves my new nickname
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> but they don;t have them cloned
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> there's a differenc
[21:59] *** JasonGoldmanNERUSY is now known as SteveGoldmanNERUSY
[21:59] <CRUSYWiz> you can have the whole "process" done
[21:59] <emily_sowalsky> did hashem want us to have any modern medicine.... tylenol, pennisilin, insulin...
[21:59] <ben_boogers> clones
[22:00] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> a clone means that you are creating a genetic duplicate, an identical twin, if you will
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[22:00] <CRUSYWiz> bbut was that intended?
[22:00] <squeek> well if god exsists
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> a clone means a genetic duplicate
[22:00] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> eve would have been a fraternal twin of adam's
[22:00] <squeek> im sue he'd jsut want us to enjoy our lives
[22:00] <Ilana_Lyon> was it meant that everoyone had anexact copy of them?
[22:00] <Jason_Lustig> well if G-d created a universe in which it is possible then of course he inteded for us to discover it
[22:00] <CRUSYWiz> i don't want a copy of myself
[22:00] <squeek> and I guess use everything that we have on earth properly and efficeiently
[22:00] <squeek> and not to sodomize small animals
[22:00] <CRUSYWiz> i mean come on, do you really want someone just like you?
[22:01] <Guest39457> hey, if he created that, wwe should do it
[22:01] <squeek> they wont be jsut like you
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> isn;t taht why a lot of people have kids?
[22:01] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> Pam, can you imagine what the world would be like with more than one of me?
[22:01] <ben_boogers> if the big G wanted us to be cloend so be it, but i'm kicking my clones rearend
[22:01] <Guest39457> the animals thing i mean
[22:01] <Jason_Lustig> that they want to see a little copy of themselves
[22:01] <squeek> they will just look like you
[22:01] <CRUSYWiz> 4another goldberg!!!!
[22:01] <CRUSYWiz> well you do have a brother!
[22:01] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> scary, isn't it?
[22:01] <Ilana_Lyon> ok, lets try this. G-d gave us Torah to live by, yeah? to adhere to and the oral torah to hehlp and also give commandments? so, soince we;'ve looked to it for answers in teh past, and its worked (not that weve followed, hence exile) lets wait until the rabbi's make their decision based on Torah, (G-ds bluepring for our life) and go by that
[22:02] <CRUSYWiz> 4,this is getting too complicated
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> well the rabbis at the time of the mishnah and stuff didn't know that we can clone people
[22:02] <CRUSYWiz> 4everyone has their own opinion
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> or any modern medicine and stuff
[22:02] <Jason_Lustig> so how is their opinion valid on any of this new stuff?
[22:02] <squeek> yes everyone does have their own opinion
[22:02] <squeek> but theres only one right opinion
[22:02] <ben_boogers> moder madicein evnatually just turns into modern drugs to be abused by the drugies
[22:02] <squeek> wait nevermind
[22:02] <Ilana_Lyon> how is their opinion valid?
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[22:03] <Alex_CHUSY> g-d said "be fruitful and multiply" he didnt say how
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> everyone's opinino is valid
[22:03] <ben_boogers> if there opinion agreass wiht mine then its valid if not then to bad
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[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> it's just whether your opininion is in agreement with the rabbis
[22:03] <SteveGoldmanNERUSY> true alex, but we cant do both
[22:03] <ben_boogers> my opion is who cares
[22:03] <SteveGoldmanNERUSY> sex and clone that is
[22:03] <Ilana_Lyon> because it's based rooted in Torah, there are often a few correct decisions. The Torah, in my opinion has everything we need, we just have to find it. hence, we shoud all study lots
[22:03] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> Amiel is only mostly like me. the same with my younger brother only less so. If they were identical to me , the world would end because each person has their own niche, and if that niche were filled, I would die until there was only one of me
[22:03] <ben_boogers> if someonwants a clone tehy cna have a clone
[22:03] <Guest39457> i wonder how clone tastes
[22:03] <Yair_Goldberg_from_CRUSY> but me being me, I'd take the world with me
[22:03] <Jason_Lustig> well are identical twins clones?
[22:04] <ben_boogers> nmo
[22:04] <BigNides> 3 yep
[22:04] <Jason_Lustig> i mean, you've got two copes of the same guyh
[22:04] <Guest39457> we could end world hunger
[22:04] <BigNides> 3 natural clones
[22:04] <squeek> clones will only look alike
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[22:04] <ben_boogers> they are when the egs dived into too
[22:04] <SteveGoldmanNERUSY> what is the deffinition of clone though Jason?
[22:04] <Alex_CHUSY> i think if someone wants to be cloned they or there clone should be put on a nother plant so there is never tw